q: But do you think they had any alternative to that?
a: Yes, of course. I mean they went to places where it was inaccessible
to the media so, you know, if they hadn't invited us there to do it then no one
would have got a picture anyway.
q: Now when you stopped being a sort of official photographer and the
Princess of Wales made her famous "time and space" speech-- What did that mean
to you as a photographer?
a: When the Princess retired from public life, she dropped all her Royal
protection officers, the police to look after her. which basically I'm not sure
whether it makes it easier or harder for us because you used to-- when she had
protection there used to be two extra cars to look for in the streets of
London but now there's only one car. It's a bit more difficult. And
basically I think it made it probably easier to find her in the end and
photograph her.
q: Can you describe some of the language that the paparazzi used which
wouldn't be familiar to most people?
a: Oh well I mean there's lots of names for the Princess that the
paparazzi use. Some aren't kind and some are but there's one especially that we
use is 'the loon' because you know for years we've been photographing the
Princess on beaches, in swimming pools, wherever and she basically didn't
mind. You know she was quite happy to be photographed by the sound of it and by
the look of things. And then all of a sudden she just made the decision that
she doesn't want the photographs anymore in that sort of way.
So from that day that she decided that she didn't want them she, when, when
she would see you in the street she would act as though, you know, you'd just
tripped her up or something, you know. She would say 'Why are you taking my
photograph?' And I'd say 'Well you're famous. You're a Princess.' And she'd
just say 'No I'm not. No I'm not' and then walk away in a huff and you're
thinking, well this is a bit loony, you know. What's gone wrong? She never
seemed to mind before so that's how the name came and it wasn't just me. She
used to do it to every other photographer and if she'd see you across the road
or something she'd chase after you or something so it wasn't the sort of
dignified behaviour we'd come to respect.
q: Can you describe what happened when she came out of the cinema in
Leicester Square and what she did?
a: Well we were looking for the Princes that day. There was a good
chance that they were going to go and see Jurassic Park but we didn't know
where and we just were doing a tour of London and we found them actually in
Leicester Square and so we waited around for them to come out, just me and
another photographer, and so just at the point she was coming out the whole
square filled up with people because all the cinemas were emptying out. So in
the end I just lost her in the crowd as she came out the front door with Prince
Harry and William and I just lost her in the crowd. So I'm standing there just
looking around and all of a sudden I see a flash of her going across, with her
blonde hair racing across towards this other photographer on, on my right and
she just screamed at the top of her voice 'You make my life hell. You make my
life hell.' And she was about an inch away from his nose, and this is the first
time we'd ever seen this sort of thing. All the pigeons flew up in the square
and all of the tourists were looking round saying 'Well what's going on here,
you know?' And they looked round to see the Princess of Wales there. So I
took a couple of pictures and we eventually got them published in the Sun but
no one had ever seen that sort of thing before.
And I think she was probably going through a lot of pressure with the
divorce and also there was a, a story in the paper that morning that she was,
they were trying to make out that she was having some sort of liaison with
Peter Van S. So she was a bit upset about that.
q: Now after she'd retired from public life did you find there was an
reluctance on the part of these papers to take photos?
a: Yes, I suppose there was a point, I mean the newspapers wouldn't do
that sort of picture. They, if they saw Diana they wouldn't go to actually look
for the the Princess Diana. They would basically leave it up to the
freelancers.
q: What kind of thing would they not buy in the nineties, early nineties
when you worked as a freelancer--
a: I don't think they would not buy anything really. Obviously once we'd
seen the first sort of loon attack, they weren't interested in that sort of
thing after that because, you know, you can only see a woman upset once and
then after that it becomes intrusive. So that sort of
thing wasn't interesting to the papers.
q: Can you describe how during that period the Princess's attitude towards
being photographed would veer? I think you had some examples of how one day
she would be shouting at you to go away and the next day she would
actually--
a: Yes, well we never know when we're going to get a picture with the
Princess because if there was a good shot of Camilla in the paper looking good
and sexy, then you can guarantee that the Princess would be out the next day
looking even sexier, sort of saying, you know, 'I'm Number One.' So it used to
be like a call in the wild sort of thing. You know you'd see a picture of
Camilla, and you know where to go the next day because the Princess would be
giving out pictures.
q: Now there was a good example of a time she was wanting you to go away
and then the next day setting up a photo opportunity. Can you explain
that?
a: Well, we'd actually got a tip-off about her going to lunch with some
people in Chelsea Harbour and so we missed the picture and tried to get one at
Kensington Palace at the gateway and we just snapped away at the car whizzing
past into the gates there and in the passenger seat was Mr Oliver Hoare going
in for a nightcap. So we thought that was a bit strange and so we tried to get
it published and I think the News of the World bought it in the end. It was a
Monday night so they had it all week to hold onto that picture. So, so what, I
think it was their Royal Correspondent had to check with Kensington Palace,
their Press Office there just to confirm the story that it was actually Oliver
Hoare.
So they, the Princess's Office was alerted to the fact that someone had got
a picture of her with a man. So I don't think she was too pleased about that.
So on the following Saturday, the day before the Oliver Hoare picture was going
to be published, she hadn't been there for months, actually or years, and she
went down to this restaurant in the West End, which is probably the busiest one
for paparazzis and celebrities and however goes in there goes photographed and
so she arrived and parked her car on a double yellow line with this man in the
car which was William Van Stauganzi and it turns out he's a friend of the
family. And so as she's walking in one of the photographers asked 'Who's your
friend?' And she said 'It's William Van Strauganzi. I've got lots of male
friends.' As if to say, you know, this picture of Oliver Hoare means nothing.
I've got lots of male friends which I hang around with. So ...
q: So as a Diana watcher at that place what did you notice happened at the
run-up or the night of Jonathan Dimbleby's interview about Prince Charles.
a: Well I'm not sure if she'd been out much doing many official
engagements but she did have this engagement smack bang when the Jonathan
Dimbleby programme was going to be broadcast just to say, you know, 'Here I
am. You don't want to look at Camilla. Here I am.' And she did wear a dress
that was similar to Camilla's but looking a bit more glamorous.
q: So what did that say to you?
a: She knows how to use the Press, you know. She knows how to use the
media to the best ability. I think she knows, if she was a Picture Editor or
an Editor of a paper she'd have the best paper in Fleet Street I think because
she certainly knows how to use, manipulate a paper.
q: Now can you describe the evidence of Diana's collusion if you like with
a particular newspaper and that reporter.
a: Well I was covering one of her regular clinics and she used to go to
Beauchamp Place for colonic irrigation and so I found her car just parked out
in a back street and just waited for her to come out and I was just hanging
about in the street there. She came out, got in the car and she was sort of
looking around her, looking around the street, looking for something - probably
paparazzis maybe. She got in the car and she waited twenty minutes and I'm
thinking well this is a bit strange. Maybe she's on the phone or something and
at that point Mr Richard Kay, Royal Correspondent for the Daily Mail, came
round the corner from where she just came and got in the car in, in the
passenger seat. This was just as she arrived back from Spain, so it was the
next day. And I think what she was doing was complaining about the Press in
Spain and she actually called it like a rape, which is a bit of an insult to
anyone who's been raped really because, you know, well it speaks for itself.
But so they were chatting and it was the next day in the Daily Mail the
Princess was quoted as a close friend. So it was everything the Princess had
said to Richard Kay but everytime it was said it was 'A close friend
says'.
q: Who do you sell that picture to and why did they want it?
a: I sold it to the Sun. Why they wanted it? I think they were saying
that she was a bit of a hypocrite because she was using the same media she was
attacking to attack the media. So I think they would, I think they called it
'Diana, the hypocrite' on the front page.
q: Now what happened the second time you photographed these two together?
Could you describe what they were doing when you saw them again?
a: You know the bit in Spain right where she's
complaining, well I mean you don't go to a Spanish Hotel, four-star Spanish
Hotel open to anyone, all-comers, and expect to be left alone especially with
the Spanish paparazzi there. So there are places you can go without any
intrusion whatsoever but to go there I think she was trying to highlight the
point that she was being harassed by the media and I think she enjoyed every
minute of it really. Sorry, what was the question?
q: I was going to ask you to describe the second occasion when you
photographed Richard Kay and the Princess together, what they had been doing
again in secret?
a: Oh yes, we'd had a tip-off about a big story coming up in the News of
the World at the weekend so we decided to keep an eye on the Princess and it
paid off in the end because we had a tip-off that she was seen in a small
square, Talbot Square in West London, with a man, which did turn out to be
Richard Kay again. So we sort of got down there quick, got in position and,
and they were sitting chatting in the car. So this was, we didn't know at the
time but she was obviously talking to Mr Kay about the Oliver Hoare story soon
to come out at the weekend and giving her version of the events.
q: Do you think other journalists were jealous of Richard Kay's
excellent sources and there was an element of professional jealousy in their
delight in catching him with the Princess?
a: Yeah, there could be. Yeah. I think mainly they were, obsessed with
the fact that she was complaining about the Press intrusion and using the same
media to complain about it
q: Did you ever have anyone ever say, any Picture Editor ever saying to
you, did they ever talk about the Press Complaints Commission which was going
on in 1990/91 onwards?
a: Yes. Oh yes I mean ever since there was a threat of a Privacy Law in
this country the newspapers have been a bit more careful. If you send a picture
in they would ask you 'Were you on private land? Did they know they you were
being photographed?' things like that just, just to find out the situation you
took the photo. So they are a bit more careful. Obviously if you took a photo
you know, Fergie with a man or something like that then obviously they wouldn't
care about that. They'd just go for it but the every day-to-day stuff they
would ask you, how far away were you? Were you trespassing?
q: Do you think that if you told them you were on private land and, and
you or your colleagues weren't, would they actually check out what you
say?
a: They wouldn't go and check it out, no, but they'd take your word for
it, you know. And a lot of the pictures nowadays aren't done on private land
anyway, you know.
q: Have you been aware of the fact that you're not supposed to photograph
the Royal children and how much notice do you take of that?
a: Well actually I've never, Prince William at Eton. The Princess thinks
we're down there everyday but, you know, we've told her that we've made a
decision not to do it and we won't do it but she still says, you know, 'You're
harassing my kids all the time.' She's obsessed but we wouldn't be able to
sell a picture if we took it down there anyway, so there's no point in
going.
q: When you watched the interview that Diana did on Panorama what was your
reaction to the fact that she admitted having an affair with James Hewitt?
a: The whole Panorama interview brought her private life into the public
domain once again and it was like sort of saying, you know, this is my say but
you can't question what I say afterwards. So if some photographer saw her with
James Hewitt after or whoever, you know, you can't sort of question it and you
can't say 'Well who was that?' So she, and it was Lord Wakeham who said 'You
know you're on your own now Princess. You know you can't expect privacy now
that you are actually liaising with the Press now.'
If you're going to talk about your old boyfriends in the media then you
bring it all into the public domain. So I think it's fair enough to look for
the next one and, and actually report on the next boyfriend.
q: What sort of price is on a photograph of Diana with a new man?
a: Well it depends if you have it exclusive or not but there's a lot of
money to be made there but I don't think anyone's going to get it because it's
a million to one chance that you're going to get it because the Princess is so
shrewd now.
She knows what that picture's worth and she knows the sort of publicity
it's going to give. I personally think, you know, people would like to see a
new man in her life, you know, and everything's turned full circle but she, I
don't think she sees it like that and also the man in her life would probably,
you know, if it was announced that he was the man in her life he wouldn't be a
very pleasant time for him because everyone would want to know all his details
and, and sort of see him everyday, see what he's up to.
q: Now people get very angry and excited with photographers like yourself
and accuse you of making a lot of money out of the Royal Family. What is the
most that you've ever been paid for photographs?
a: Yes because no one talks about it, the figures get higher and higher.
It's just so exaggerated what we do get, not what we do get but what people
think we get. I would say that we just earn what a good professional person
earns. So if you're a solicitor or something you would earn a good
wage.
q: So what do you get, fifty, sixty thousand a year?
a: Well something like that, yes. We're not driving Rolls Royces about or
Jaguars or whatever. You know we just earn a good wage get by.
q: Can you describe the incident when you were chased into a
supermarket?
a: Yes. Well we were doing an everyday picture of the Princess at the
Harbour Club, me and another photographer, and we were standing there on our
ladders and she came out in the normal way. We got a picture but it wasn't
really any good so we got back in our cars and I'm just talking to Mark saying
'How about a cup of coffee?' and just taking a bit of time to have a chat. So I
went off to Sainsburys, just round the corner to use their facilities, and Mark
went to the coffee shop, ordered the coffees and breakfast.
And so this is ten minutes after she'd gone back to Kensington Palace and
we were just having a chat and it's ten minutes later. So, so I went round...
this is going to be a good header isn't it? I went round to Sainsburys, parked
up and I was just getting out the car and I had a phone call from Mark and he
was shouting down the phone saying 'She's behind me. She's behind me.' I said
'What do you mean she's behind you? She left ten minutes ago.' And he said 'No,
no she's chasing me. She's chasing me.' And she was an inch away from his
bumper flashing her lights and beeping her horn and he said 'I'm bringing her
round to Sainsburys. I'm not facing this alone.'
And so he brought her round and I'm saying 'No, don't bring her here. I
don't want to get involved' you know and so he brought her round and she, she's
right on the bumper at the back of his car and they come flying into the, into
the car park there and I thought oh here we go, you know. She's going to have a
go at us again. So I just sort of hid in the car for a bit and then I thought
oh, this is getting ridiculous. So I jumped out of the problem and I said
'What's your problem?' sort of thing, you know. 'Hello. Good morning' and then
she started to go on at us, you know, saying why are you taking my picture, you
know. And we're saying 'Well you're famous, you know. You're in the news, you
know. I'm sorry about this but you are in the news and you're going through
this divorce which people are interested in so, you know, there will be a
demand for pictures.' And she couldn't understand why we had to take a picture
everyday but of course we've got to feed the demand from the papers and
magazine.
q: Did you ever feel sorry for her at this stage because you do paint a
picture of someone who's a bit unhinged really?
a: I do feel sorry for anyone who's going through a divorce but I can't
help the fact that she is in the public eye and, and the fact that she does
sort of feed the public's interest. I mean if she went out everyday and did
normal things and didn't appear at big venues as top of the bill. Here she is
in New York at the Gala affair looking beautiful and looking glamorous I could
understand it but she does keep feeding the media with these images which, you
know, people want to see behind that image and basically if
she didn't do that then no one would be interested in her,
And f she didn't keep up with these high profile events. If she, if she
just went down to the shops everyday as everyone else does people would soon
get bored with that and someone else would take her place. I mean look at
Sophie Rhys Jones at the moment. Because she doesn't do any of these events,
trying to go out saying 'look at me. I'm glamorous. I'm the Princess' no one's
interested in her. If you took her picture into the papers now of Sophie, it
would be hard to sell it because she doesn't flaunt herself to the media like
the Princess does.
q: What happened when you went up to Scotland and Balmoral with Prince
Charles'side this time?
a: Well this was quite early on actually before the Andrew Morton book.
What happened was he goes up for a regular visit to Scotland for fishing during
the Easter breakwith Prince Harry and William and the normal paparazzi
arriving in the local town there, Balmoral, and just as we're sort of settling
in, one of the policemen came round to the hotel and sort of put his cards on
the table and said 'What would you like?'
And we said 'Well what do you mean-- what would you like?' He said 'What
pictures do you want?' So we said 'Well this is very strange but we'll have
Prince Charles with the two Princes on the riverbank just throwing stones in
the water. That would be nice.' And he said 'Right okay. I'll see what I can
do. Eleven o'clock tomorrow morning be here at this position.' And so we went
there and there, there they were throwing the stones in the water. They gave us
ten minutes of lovely pictures and that was just an occasion when, you know,
they do use the paparazzi and the media to get across a point and I've always
wondered where the, because the deal was that we got the pictures and then we
left them alone for the rest of the weekend so that they could have a quiet
weekend but I do have a suspicion that there was a bigger fish to fry up there
with maybe he had Camilla up there at the time and he just wanted us out the
way so he could enjoy his weekend with Camilla.
q: Maybe it's the right thing to do because if he hadn't, hadn't done a
photo opportunity you would have hung around all weekend.
a: Yeah, yeah, but like we say, Balmoral is a huge estate and if they
don't want to be seen they, they can just go up the back there. There's
thousands of acres of land and rivers up there which we just can't see. So, you
know, you only get a picture if they don't mind, you know. If they really do
mind then obviously they can hide away.
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