Q: Well, how was Ileene for you, when you got in?

Mrs. Watkins : I was pretty lonesome at times, although it's such an exciting place.

Thank goodness we have a real close family. And good family support. And, I relied on that a lot when I really didn't know what was happening. And then someone told me Lisa was not doing very well. And, so, I called her up and said: Hey, you know, I hear you like to play tennis. I had seen her out playing tennis; but, we play a little different level, which in tennis that goes from month to month. It depends on hello. But, we became friends. And, maybe partly out of need for me to help someone, that usually helps you to be stronger. I mean, I understand all that. But, she needed some help, too. And, that was fine. I mean, that was part of what makes a friendship.

Q: And, it must have helped to have a fellow Arkansan or fellow Arkansans. People who had a common history.

Mrs. Watkins : She understood things and I at least knew where she was coming from. And, I could trust her. But, I really care about Lisa today. I had great sadness that I knew she and Vince were, Vince was so stressed; that I tried to get us all together because I was real concerned. Just what I was hearing. Women do share, if you trust one another. And, it was not okay. But, who was? I mean, David and I are really okay. And, we were stressed.

Q: So Washington came as a revelation to you all?

A: Perhaps so.

Q: There's no way I suppose to have guessed the crushing work load, the sense of personal dislocation perhaps.

A: Well, I think that I had some indication just from having worked in the campaign of what--while the campaign was so different that there would be a lot of--a lot to do. And one, once I got there in December and saw all the things that were expected, you know, there was no business plan. I come from a business background. We always have a business plan. Well, we didn't have a business plan.

So, we didn't have a White House policy. The Republicans hadn't had one before. If they did, they certainly weren't sharing it with us. So we had to develop sort of White House policies and how you answered the phone. How you did this? How you did that? Had to make decisions on who got into the White House mess? Big decision.

And--but coupled with the very--at the very first, if you will recall, and the pledges that President Clinton made was a 25 percent personnel cut. Well, it--my responsibility was to enforce that, along with the Chief of Staff's office. And to see that that happened, and who to cut, and where to cut, and what positions to cut, and who to talk to, and lobby with that were department heads that they were going to lose three employees.

And everybody said, "We're overworked. We need 10 more. We how can you cut me three, when I need five more than anybody had?"

Q: Let me ask you first what was the most unexpected aspect of your move to Washington? What was the biggest surprise?

A: Oh, Peter, I've said this before. I guess I always thought, as a student of--not a good student maybe, or at least not one that made a study of the presidency or congress, but having gone through high school and college and studying physics, I mean civics, and, yeah, government, that type of thing to suddenly see on the real time basis, how little power the president had.

I thought the president did not have as much power, as I perceived that he had, that it really was Congress. Congress controlled things. And that was the biggest surprise. You ask about surprise. That was the biggest surprise for me to see, because we had to work so strongly with Congress, getting budgets passed. Anything passed. Anything we did, and they have--had real power.

And I, I think particularly as you go up there new, and you're naive, and you don't know the ropes, well, they've been there for years, and they know how to get you in line.

Q: And so you have this transition in your life, and to some degree in the lives of all of the folks who came from Arkansas where you've gone through the grind and the up and down, the football season of the campaign, and you prevail. And then you go through the intensity of the hard work of the transition, and then the euphoric and sense of being part of history that moment of, "And now you're in." You drive through the gates. You get the Marine salute. Help me to understand what it must have been like from that inside view when things started so jarringly going wrong, going badly. There was 'Nannygate' suddenly, and news accounts of problems in the residence and one thing after another. What is the effect on you folks?

A: Oh, it was negative certainly. The impact of the particular ones I was in. A lot of the things I was not involved in, but the travel office situation--it was very devastating to the--have that kind of situation. I mean it, it was--there was nothing positive about it.

You know, we always--at least my belief on that situation was that we had the right to--the president had the right to hire and fire anybody in the White House. And that's sort of the mission that we took on when that happened.

Mistakes were made. A lot of mistakes. If I had it to do over again, today, knowing what I know now, certainly I would have handled it differently. I would have been involved with it. I'm sure everybody would say that. Anybody you would interview or talk to who is involved in any of them; the Nannygate--the mistakes we made--they--but--the mistakes that were made at least the ones that I knew about from others, and the ones that I participated in were not malicious. They were honest mistakes, maybe from not thinking through things enough, because there are too many other things to do, as I alluded to earlier.

But the, the--really not--and that's the thing that hurts me so much is how the partisanship, and how those things that truly were in my opinion honest mistakes. Get blown out, and, and get blown up, and it becomes a, you know, three- or four-year investigation, and still not everything's--now the final reports aren't out on everything now.

Mrs. Watkins: But I would like to add something to that. I felt, and, have strong views that had they, at some point said, "You know, we do make mistakes. We are going to make a few, but we're trying to do it well."

For some reason, there was a feeling in that White House that you could never say, "I made a mistake." And I think it added to all of the bad things that happened to--I mean, of course, they didn't mean to make a mistake. I mean does anyone in life? Well, of course, unless you just, you know, are a jellyfish, I don't think they make very many, but [laughter] that bothered me.

The worst thing was not to just say, "Hey, we're here doing a good job. Trying to do a good job. We'll listen." Just, kind of be human, and I think that's what got Bill Clinton elected, but it changed once we were there, it changed.

David Watkins : Well, I think, Peter, too, to kind of echo what Ileene says, there's something that is, is terrible about the White House. I'm told that it was that way in the Bush White House. I'm sure it was that way in the Reagan White House, but I kind of grew up in the--playing sports, and the military and so many things are team effort, and you're on the team. If you're on the team, you're on the team.

And too many people were too consumed with their own personal agendas, and covering their personal backsides that and I'm told it's always the case. But that wasn't much fun to be a part of that, and to see that happen.

And that's not, that's not to point out anybody, other than that's just the way it was. And, and I think that's something that happens in the White House, happens in politics. But you don't enjoy it while you're seeing it happen.

We didn't know who the enemy was. We should have. We should have had--we--

Mrs. Watkins: Yes. It was within. That was the thing that bothered me the most about Washington, when you were asking David was that there was not loyalty among the people that had--we'd all gotten there together.

Now, I personally think that comes from the head and goes down. You know all you have to do to stop that is say, "Hey, we are a team. It's going to be this way. We're going to make some mistakes, but we are here together." And, then, if Bill Clinton gets tired of someone, and thinks they're really not doing a good job, well then you can easily address that, not that day-to-day. David said when the Travelgate deal had been [clearing throat]--he said he was like no one wanted to speak to him. Because he had made a mistake that day. Well, I'm sure Vince had the same thing when he made any--I mean it was just people treated you as though you were not there.

A: Well, it was more that there was fear of aligning themselves with you, because they might make a mistake of aligning someone that's on the way out, for whatever the reason--you know, for a mistake made. And you didn't want to be seen--it's like you don't want to be seen in public with somebody that's a sinner. [Clicks fingers.] And that was--

Mrs. Watkins: It's very sad.

Q: That is just a savage--

A: It's cannibalistic.

Q: Vince, as you know referred to Mrs. Clinton, as The Client. You sometimes referred to Mrs. Clinton as the--

A: I got that from Vince, The Client.

Q: And there was a time I know--there was a period when she--of course, she's under enormous pressure, too. She's carving this new role out for herself, and there's all kinds of, you know, backbiting about that too. Where the discourse, the commerce, the daily commerce that she had with some of her most trusted advisors; you, Vince and others was sometimes a little bit edgy. Now, I'm wondering what the effect of that would be. Yet another added pressure. Is it something you all were able just to let fall off your back?

A: Oh, no. You never do. You'd never let it fall off your back if it came from Hillary or from the president. That's a big deal. It's a big deal. You may--you know, and I guess in--someone asked me at one of the committee hearings, and I probably wrote it--I don't know if I wrote it.

I was questioned about this, about the chain of command. And my chain of command was very easy. It was Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, Mack McLarty, then me. And they said, "Well, where's Al Gore?" And I said, "Well, maybe constitutionally Al Gore is in there, but for me and my working, it's Bill Clinton, Hillary Clinton, and that's the way it is."

And that's the way it was. And, and I--so if they had anything to do, or any displeasure with any of us--sure it made a huge impact. I mean anytime Hillary, and on occasion she called with a problem, maybe it was something to do with the executive mansion, the area, the executive quarters, or somebody not getting in the gate properly or, or a badge problem, it had an impact. It was kind of like "Mmm! You better address--"

You, you didn't put it aside, and go on and deal with something else. You dealt with that. And I'm sure Vince had the same experience.

Q: And you and Vince both referred to her how, among yourselves?

A: I don't know that we talked that much about it. On some specific things, like in the travel thing, we knew who The Client was. And we referred to her as the Client occasionally. We've referred to both of them sometimes, but more Hillary, because her interplay with us was more than the president. I mean the president was the president. And Hillary was--we knew she was the Client. And I don't know--I didn't even know how to define that anymore than that, Peter.

Q: It was very early on, six months after the inauguration that Vince killed himself. Do you remember that day, Ileene, as having been in any way ominous in any way particularly heavy?

Mrs. Watkins: Oh, do you know it's indescribable. At first, it was disbelief. And, then, I did know the pressures, a lot of the pressures that he was under, as everyone did. But, oh, my, and then I think you transfer some of your own fears and problems to someone that's been in the same situation, and has chosen that way to end it.

I mean I had fears for David, because he has been--he assures me he is not that--he would never do that, and he has never thought of that as an answer to his problems, but I think it's remarkable that he has not. Because I have worried for him, maybe he doesn't need me to do that, but I did--was very concerned.

And I think maybe some of my feelings about Vince, because there is such a sadness. I mean I almost can't talk about it, because I, I really have a little guilt for not making sure that we got together. I mean I always think there might be something you could have done. And, and maybe there isn't, but I still have that feeling that if he knew he had two friends in the world that it's a better solution than what he chose.

Q: Had you by then gotten any sense of the measure of the despair that he must have been feeling?

Mrs. Watkins: Well, when Lisa shared some thing with me that, you know, how disturbed he was, and I don't know whether it would be right to say exactly how she shared it, but he was under more stress than I can imagine any man being. I mean he was showing great signs that--she did--she said that Vince wants me to hold him in bed at night. I mean that just--it, it is something that is hard for me to discuss. It is--if you don't understand that, you just don't get it.

Q: There are these moments in our national lives that people remember forever, where you were, or what you were thinking. What you did. Think of that day that your friend and colleague and fellow Arkansan died tragically, amid all this other stuff that's going on. What was your impulse to do? Who did you first call?

Mrs. Watkins: I believe it ... (inaudible)

A: Oh, well, I can give you the sequence. That was in July, and the first time it was the earliest I'd ever left the White House up until that point, that evening. And sometime in--after 6:00 p.m. but I, I don't know--I couldn't recall when we had decided to go to a movie. I was going to treat Ileene to a movie. We were going to a movie, and then go to dinner.

And I come home, pick her up. We drive up Wisconsin Avenue to a movie, and the movie is In the Line of Fire. Clint Eastwood. And just about 30 minutes into the movie or so, maybe less, I get a beep. And it has a number. So I go to the pay phone in the movie theater, and call the number, and it's a--the signal office, and they connect me with the--I, I don't recall at this time. I think it was the not the Secret Service, but the Park Police, and they informed me that Vince Foster has killed himself.

And that they had notified me, because I was the designated person at the White House if anything happened to the White House staff to first inform. So, I just couldn't believe it, and I kept saying, "Ooh, are you sure of the identity?" I said, "I'm not going to put anything in motion. I'm not going to call anybody. Are you positive of identity?" I kept stressing that.

And they said, "Well, yes we are." And I said, "Well, has anyone that knows him?" "No." But--and then as I recall it was Mr. Livingston and Mr. Kennedy are on their way to identify the body. They had gotten them some way through security, and they were aware of it also.

And I said, "Well, call me back on my cell phone, or I'm going home now, and call me, because I'll need to notify some other people, when you have confirmed the identity." So I go back down into the movie and sit down with Ileene and she's wondering because I've been gone for 20 minutes or so, you know, on this phone call.

I go back and tell her that, I said, "Ileene, you're not going believe this, Vince Foster has killed himself." And she was in total disbelief, too. But I said, "We've got to go." And I said, "You know, 'cause I'm, I'm waiting to hear back from Park Police and the other officials about what to do or what to--"

So, they called me and confirmed that the body had definitely had been identified, and that two Park Policemen were going to go and notify the family. And I said, "Well, I want to be there. I want to go with you." I said, "Do you--are these people trained in doing this? I said 'cause--and they said, "Oh, yes they do it. This is part of their training." So they came by and picked me up at our house, and I went with the Park Police to notify the family of his death.

Q: A devastating evening.

A: Devastating.

Mrs. Watkins: And we were concerned about Lisa, because I had been with her that day, and more than calling someone at--first with disbelief and second is that I need to be there when they tell Lisa. It's just, just out of who wants to be in that situation? But I would want someone that was a friendly face to be with me, and I didn't know where her family--I really didn't know where anyone else was. So that was--that really preocuppied us was to go to the house, and make sure that it was someone other than the police that told her, or that someone else was there.

That was, that was really my first thing. And, then, of course, my immediate family later to just talk about, you know, how, how to put these things in perspective. How, how do you? I mean I--if you ever do? But--

Q: Were you all able to be part of the breaking of the news?

A: Oh! Oh, well, yes. We were the first there with the-- it, it--by coincidence, I guess the two Park Policemen go and knock on the door, and I'm right behind them. And they talk to the daughter, tell her, is her mother there, and they see us, and her mother comes down, and--

Mrs. Watkins: And Lisa.

Q: Yeah. And so they inform Lisa, and at that time, we--one of Vince's two sisters and Webb Hubbell are coming up. One of the sisters from Little Rock had just come into town, and they were driving up to be there. But -I mean I notified Mack McLarty-- I notified his office and there was, of course, total disbelief there, and it was the night the president was doing a special show, and he--Mack notifies the president. And then, then sometime during the night, everybody seems to gather at the Foster's house. It was a night that was very, was very unbelievable.

And, then, the next night also, we gathered there, and the president comes over that night. That's just a much smaller group, but everybody is still in shock, and trying to kind of come to grips with it together. I think that night hit me harder. You know, I was doing my job the night of the death, and the next night I'm grieving, and it was different.

Q: And is there a way you all could help me to understand what--of course there was grief and of course there was heartbreak and sorrow and great shock over Vince's death. But was it in any way an informing event to you folks who had come with hope and expectation and, as you've put it, a certain naivete. Was it in any way an organizing event in how you thought and felt about Washington and your experience?

Mrs. Watkins: David had been pretty well beaten up before Vince's suicide. And so I would say that we had gone through a good deal of that, but maybe that was a defining moment that--you know, there's--this is more serious than I've really thought all along; that it would kind of boil down they'd just start handling it a little better.

To me Vince's suicide told me a lot of things. He didn't like what was going on behind the scenes. What he knew he was not comfortable with. Because I think he's an honorable man. If nothing else he had a great deal of honor. And maybe many, many more good traits. But I don't need a--was not privileged to know him personally, like to say those things.

But it gave me a sense that things were really bad for him to consider that solution. And he had, he had, I think, in the press by that time told in his note he was concerned about the ongoing bloodletting that was going on. And I thought, oh, my, what is that about? You know, all of those antennae are just waving in the wind.

A: Well, I think my, part of my resolve at that time, Peter, is--and I shared it with Mack McLarty after Vince's death--there was still this talk about White House Travel Office, and it was just still stewing. And maybe that be turned--it might be turned over to a Congressional committee. But the GAO was going to do a report. And all that wasn't resolved.

And I had a conversation with Mack and the ... (inaudible) and--just to express my total disdain for that whole situation that ... (inaudible) Washington and then the, and the resolve and us. And I told myself and committed to myself that I was--would stay here a year. And I think I told--and at that time I told Mack that. And I said, "I committed to a year, at least in my own mind. And I'm going to do that. But come the end of the year I'm out of here,

Q: Let me ask you, David, something about that helicopter incident. As it's sort of remembered at the moment by common history and popular culture. You were such an avid golfer that you decided, because you were a powerful person at the White House, just to commandeer a United States military aircraft and go have a nice couple of rounds of golf. What happened?

A: Well, let me turn that back, a question to you, Peter. Does it make any sense for a person that's in the White House and in a senior position, that can invite people to lunch at the White House that have never been to the White House for lunch, or even the, even the big people in Washington love to have lunch at the White House and say they've been to the White House, and that can be invited subsequently to any club--great golf courses; Congressional, where the U.S. Open was held--to Robert Trent Jones. You know the list of golf courses in Washington, DC. Chevvy Chase. Any of these. I get invitations all the time, all the time. I accept some. I play some. I don't accept some because I'm too busy.

So does it make any sense at all for somebody that could do that and suddenly decides on a Tuesday afternoon to call up a helicopter to go to Holly Hills Country Club in Frederick, Maryland to play golf?

Q: Well, what was that trip for, then?

A: Well, it's very difficult for me to answer that and not sound self-serving. But I, I will try to make this as specific and as objective as I can be. I have a lot of emotion in it, and I certainly have a lot of passion about the situation. But here goes.

One, part of my responsibility as assistant to the President for Management and Administration is that I am the person that the White House Military Office reports to. There's a person called the Director of the White House Military Office. In 1993, the first year of the Clinton administration, he visited the Camp David two times. The last year of President Bush's administration he was there 37 times.

Well, the White House Military Office is responsible for Camp David. And they have a, a lot of military people, personnel, there to take care of it, support it, and to provide the President and his guests all the things that they need, including communications, recreation, anything that they need up there. . Camp David came under my purview of responsibility.

So back in the fall of '93 the then Director of White House, and the Deputy Director, came to me and said, "Mr. Watkins, how can we get the President to go to Camp David more often?" I said, "Well, I think the only way that will ever happen right now is to have a place for him to play golf. Because he likes to play golf. He's obsessive about it when he has the opportunity. And if he could be up there and helicopter out to a place to play golf and go back, I think, you know there's not a golf course on Camp David. But if there were one around I think that's one way to do it." So that's, that's like September/October.

And then they come back in late April or early May and said, "We found it." Said, "We've got this course, and it's not too far. It's--we don't know how far distance time wise from Camp David. But it can't be too far. It's in Frederick, Maryland. It's Holly Hills Country Club. Said, "And we would like for you to go look it over. And here's why."

and I was the guy--I was Clinton's golf consultant at the White House.

So one day in May, latter May, the 23rd or 4th of 19 something, of May, they, they scheduled it. They scheduled this on a Monday or Tuesday--Tuesday, I believe, to go play golf. And I don't--it's no secret around my office. I mean, it's on my calendar, "Go in Camp David and Holly Hills to play golf."

We went to Camp David first. We had a meeting there. We reviewed some--there was some new construction going on. I took a site visit for that. And then part of the other reason is the pilot of the helicopter that day had never--you always had to have some test landings on a new place going for the President. And he hadn't landed there at Holly Hills.

So he hadn't done that. So if the President were to use that, they were going to have to take a helicopter sometime and go over and land at Holly Hills Country Club to see how it worked out.

So we have a meeting at Holly Hills--I mean, Camp David. We get in the helicopter and fly to Holly Hills. As I recall it's something like 14 minutes. We land. I go in.

Well, the pro starts working with Al Malden, who is the Director of the White House Military Office, because Al needs some help with his game. So our time instead of being back at the clubhouse like 5:30, we're there about 6:30. Well, about 5:45 the photographer shows up. And the rest you know.

Q: Photographer?

A: Photographer from a local newspaper comes out and takes that famous photo of our boarding the helicopter with the Marine saluting us.

Q: Why in the world would a photographer come out to the--

A: I don't know. That's mystery--still a mystery to me.

There were two days-- this picture goes all over on CNN and a Congressman from that district, a Republican Congressman, gets in the act and there's a, you know, the story plays out all over the, all over the situation, I mean, all over the country.

....Sometime around noon of that day that I resigned McLarty calls me in and says, "Davo," he said, "I think this is it." He said, "I think this one--I don't think we can get out of this one." He said, "I think you need to resign." Words to that effect.

And I said, "Mack, sure. I'll do it." I said, "I think you're right." I said, " I see the political downfall--I mean, the political ramification about this," I said. "But I'm not going to do it till I talk to the big Kahuna"--or words to that effect. And that's probably what I said.

And he said, "Fair enough. That's great." He said, "I'll work on it." That's like noon, one o'clock. And that is the day of the first Most Favored Nations Treaty with China. And he is working on that and being briefed.

And I go back to my office over in the OEOB, leave the White--leave McClarty's office, and am waiting on a call. And finally about 4:25 I get a call from Nancy H... said, "David, the President wants to talk to you."

And he says, "You wanted to talk to me?" I said, "Yeah, that's right, I do." And he said, "Well"--I said, "Am I going to get a chance to talk to you about this helicopter thing?" He said, "Yeah, of course. But I can't do it right now." He said, "I've got this press conference of Most Favored Nations." He said, "I'll do it right after that."

And I said okay. I mean, I couldn't control--he said, "I've got it in five minutes," you know. So I didn't know what the response would be on the questions. But they get in there, they do The Most Favored, and I'm watching it on television. And Clinton is asked a question about the--Watkins and the helicopter. And he does his facial gesture that he has when he has displeasure and seriousness. And he said, "Well, Mr. Watkins has offered to resign, or is resigning," some words to that effect, and that, "This is serious and I can assure you that the taxpayers will be repaid every cent of the cost." You know, the typical political thing.

And I'm watching it in my office on TV, alone, by myself. And two minutes later after the conference I get a call from Nancy saying, "The President wants to see you now." And I walk in and he said, "Tell me about this."

And I said, "Okay." So I proceed to tell him basically what I told you here. And he said, "Well, I know you didn't do anything wrong."

Q: But it's after he's gone on national television.

A: That's right. I explode. It's the only time I did use profanity. I also didn't call him Mr. President; the only time that I didn't in--the only time in my 18 months at the White House I didn't say "Mr. President."

I said, "How can you say that and do what you've done, and emasculated me in front of national television?" He said, "Well, I think we can fix that. And I think I can do this." He says, "You go back to your office and write me a letter describing what you've told me and send it to me."

So I do like a three-page letter to the President outlining this, which I'm assuming is going to be used in some proactive way to the press, and so forth. And I send that letter.

Well, the next letter I get back is a letter the next day from the President saying, "how grateful Hillary and I are for what you and Ileene have done for our administration." And that was it.

I got attempts at phone calls a couple of days later. Then they asked me--McLarty--they asked me to move out of my office. They wanted me out by--I had the weekend, but I had to give up my pass and get cleared through the gates to go back and pick up my stuff. Which was pretty humiliating.

... And, as I recall, I don't think we've had a single telephone conversation to this day. I got a note from him when I went to California saying he was glad to hear that I was doing so well.

Mrs. Watkins: And, you know, he could repair everything that happened to David in one sentence to the press. That's--I mean, that's my bottom line.

A: Well, I think, I think the bottom line to me is that all I would have asked for-- I--it was a mistake. It was--I've given you a reason for doing it. But politically it was stupid....I was willing to resign. I told McLarty that I would have been willing--I did. You know, I wrote him a letter. I just wish, and what I regret the most is when questioned by the press, prior to talking to me, that the President had said, "Look, David Watkins has been a friend [weeping] and supporter for 14 years. And I haven't talked to him yet, but let me just talk to him and we'll do what's right. I'll do what's right, whatever the situation is. But I owe him that." And just let that happen.

And he didn't. And that's my disappointment with Bill Clinton.