THE FULL PSYCHIATRIC INTERVIEW

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DR. RESNICK: LET ME JUST BEGIN AND INTRODUCE MYSELF. MY NAME IS DR. RESNICK. I AM A PSYCHIATRIST. I'VE BEEN ASKED TO SEE YOU BY YOUR DEFENSE ATTORNEYS. YOU SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT WHAT YOU TOLD ME IS NOT CONFIDENTIAL IN THE SENSE THAT I MAY BE EVENTUALLY PREPARING A REPORT, WHICH... (inaudible) IN COURT OR TESTIFYING IN COURT. BUT, IF I AM UNHELPFUL, YOUR ATTORNEYS CAN SIMPLY NOT USE ME IN COURT. BUT, YOU SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT. IT IS NOT CONFIDENTIAL. ... (inaudible) WOULD BE IN A TREATMENT IF YOU WERE TALKING TO A TREATING DOCTOR. DO YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS?

John Salvi: As far as you say it's not confidential, meaning?

DR. RESNICK: RIGHT. IT DOESN'T MEAN IT'LL NEVER BE SHOWN ON PUBLIC TELEVISION KIND OF THING. BUT, IT IS A WAY FOR ME TO GATHER INFORMATION TO BE HELPFUL TO YOUR DEFENSE ATTORNEYS AND SOMETHING YOU TELL ME MAY BE HELPFUL, WHICH WILL BE USEFUL TO COME OUT IN COURT. AND IN THAT SENSE, IT COULD BECOME --

John Salvi: As far as the tape being shown in court, I would want that under my--

DR. RESNICK: -- YOUR ATTORNEYS (simultaneous conversation)

John Salvi: -- consultation with the attorneys.

DR. RESNICK: ABSOLUTELY. IT COULD NOT BE SHOWN UNLESS YOUR ATTORNEYS WANTED IT TO BE SHOWN, ABSOLUTELY. OKAY, ANY OTHER QUESTIONS YOU HAVE BEFORE WE START?

John Salvi: No, not for the most part.

DR. RESNICK: OKAY, NOW LET ME JUST TELL YOU THAT I DON'T KNOW A LOT ABOUT YOUR CASE. I KNOW THAT YOU'VE BEEN CHARGED WITH A SERIOUS CRIME. AND I'VE READ A COUPLE OF NEWSPAPER ARTICLES, BUT I'M FROM CLEVELAND, OHIO, SO I HAVEN'T BEEN DELUGED WITH PUBLICITY THE WAY THIS AREA HAS BEEN.

SO, I'M GOING TO ASK YOU SOME VERY BASIC QUESTIONS JUST TO GIVE YOU AN OVERVIEW OF WHAT TO EXPECT. WE'LL BE HAVING UP TO THREE OR FOUR HOURS TOGETHER HERE.

John Salvi: You have to understand, I haven't eaten much in the last few days. And I've just gotten through a food poisoning. So, I don't want to be-- I don't want to be warn out with this too much.

DR. RESNICK: IF YOU'RE FEELING UNCOMFORTABLE WE'LL ARRANGE A BREAK. IT'S AFTER LUNCH, SO YOU DIDN'T MISS ANY LUNCH, RIGHT?

John Salvi: Well, I didn't have my lunch yet.

DR. RESNICK: OH, IS THAT RIGHT?

John Salvi: And I haven't really eaten a decent meal in the last couple of days, so--

DR. RESNICK: WELL, LET'S MOVE ALONG AND IF YOU'RE FATIGUED.

John Salvi: As far as I know I still have a bacterial problem in my mouth, condition from the food.

DR. RESNICK: OKAY, WELL, YOU JUST LET ME KNOW IF THERE'S ANY PROBLEM, OR IF YOU NEED TO TAKE A BREAK OR WHATEVER. ALRIGHT, SO JUST TO GIVE YOU AN OVERVIEW OF WHAT TO EXPECT, WHAT I'D LIKE TO DO IS LEARN SOME BACKGROUND FROM YOU ABOUT YOUR EARLIER LIFE. SOMETHING ABOUT YOUR MEDICAL AND PSYCHIATRIC HISTORY YOU MAY HAVE HAD IN THE PAST, OR IF NOT. AND THEN AN OPPORTUNITY TO TALK ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED AT THE TIME OF THE ALLEGED CRIME.

BUT, LET'S JUST KIND OF GET STARTED AND SEE HOW IT GOES HERE. FIRST, YOU'RE HOW OLD, MR. SALVI?

John Salvi: Twenty-two years old.

DR. RESNICK: WERE YOU EMPLOYED AT THE TIME, BEFORE YOU ENDED UP IN JAIL?

John Salvi: Oh well, yes I was.

DR. RESNICK: WHAT WERE YOU DOING?

John Salvi: I'm a hairdresser. And, uh, an assistant.

DR. RESNICK: WHERE WERE YOU BORN?

John Salvi: I was born in Salem, Massachusetts on 03-02-72.

DR. RESNICK: 3-2-27.

John Salvi: 03-02-72.

DR. RESNICK: OKAY. AND, UH, YOU HAVE ANY BROTHERS AND SISTERS?

John Salvi: No.

DR. RESNICK: AND ARE BOTH YOUR PARENTS LIVING?

John Salvi: Yes.

DR. RESNICK: AND ARE THEY MARRIED OR THEY'RE SEPARATED NOW?

John Salvi: They're married.

DR. RESNICK: YOUR PARENTS ARE MARRIED. OKAY. AND WHAT DOES YOUR FATHER DO?

JOHN SALVI: He is a dental technician.

DR. RESNICK: AND HOW OLD IS HE?

JOHN SALVI: I don't know exactly.

DR. RESNICK: ABOUT?

JOHN SALVI: I'd have to say 50, uh, years old. Mother the same.

DR. RESNICK: HOW DID YOU GET ALONG WITH YOUR DAD GROWING UP?

JOHN SALVI: Very Well. We all went fishing, water skiing.

DR. RESNICK: AND YOUR MOTHER IS ALSO ABOUT 50. DOES SHE WORK OUTSIDE THE HOME?

JOHN SALVI: Yes.

DR. RESNICK: WHAT DOES SHE DO?

JOHN SALVI: She's a piano teacher.

DR. RESNICK: AND DOES SHE GET A SALARY OR SHE JUST DOES IT BY THE LESSON?

JOHN SALVI: Well, she used to teach piano for about 15 years.

DR. RESNICK: AND HOW?

JOHN SALVI: With my grandfather. And then she-- didn't work for a short time. Then she worked as a florist.

DR. RESNICK: AND WAS SHE DOING THAT MOST RECENTLY, AS A FLORIST?

JOHN SALVI: Yeah, she worked at ... (inaudible) as a florist.

DR. RESNICK: LET ME ASK YOU SOMETHING ABOUT YOUR RELIGIOUS EDUCATION. FIRST OF ALL, WHAT RELIGION ARE YOU?

JOHN SALVI: Catholic.

DR. RESNICK: ALRIGHT.

JOHN SALVI: But, I also go to a number of other churches besides Catholic.

DR. RESNICK: DID YOU GO TO PAROCHIAL SCHOOL?

JOHN SALVI: Yes.

DR. RESNICK: THROUGHOUT--

JOHN SALVI: Well, I went-- I took classes in nursery school, uh, with the nuns. And, uh, I also went to, uh, parochial school in the first grade. And then I went to public school from second grade up to sixth. And then--

DR. RESNICK: PAROCHIAL FROM SEVENTH TO--

JOHN SALVI: Parochial from seventh to eighth. Then from ninth to twelfth I went to a public school.

DR. RESNICK: AND THEN YOU GRADUATED HIGH SCHOOL AT PUBLIC SCHOOL. AND DID YOU THEN GO ON TO COLLEGE?

JOHN SALVI: I took one year at Edison(?) Community College to get my Associates of Arts.

DR. RESNICK: YOU COULD DO THAT IN ONE YEAR?

JOHN SALVI: No. It takes two.

DR. RESNICK: SO, YOU DIDN'T GET A DEGREE FROM THERE?

JOHN SALVI: No.

DR. RESNICK: OKAY, SO ONE YEAR AT A COMMUNITY COLLEGE. ALRIGHT. AND THEN YOU WENT TO HAIRDRESSING SCHOOL. WAS THAT AFTER THAT?

JOHN SALVI: Yes.

DR. RESNICK: AND WHERE WAS THAT?

JOHN SALVI: That's in Malden, Massachusetts. It's called LIBS, L-I-B-S, Learning Institute for Beauty Sciences.

DR. RESNICK: HAS RELIGION BEEN AN IMPORTANT PART OF YOUR LIFE?

JOHN SALVI: Always.

DR. RESNICK: THROUGHOUT YOUR LIFE?

JOHN SALVI: Yes. My mother taught(?) CCD. We always went to midnight mass, church every Sunday.

DR. RESNICK: OKAY. AND SO WHEN YOU WERE IN PUBLIC SCHOOL YOU WERE STILL GOING TO CHURCH ONCE A WEEK ON SUNDAY, BUT NOT MORE THAN THAT?

JOHN SALVI: Once a week. I still go to church once a week. As a matter of fact, I just went to church. Father Beale, ... (inaudible) this institution, came and saw me and gave me communion and we spoke a little bit.

DR. RESNICK: WELL, LET'S CONTINUE ON THE RELIGION PART HERE. DO YOU HAVE ANY UNUSUAL BELIEFS AS A CATHOLIC, OR IS IT PRETTY STRAIGHT CATHOLIC CHURCH ... (inaudible) YOUR OWN ATTITUDES?

JOHN SALVI: My beliefs as a Catholic would be more along the lines of exactly what the church has to say. The Pope went to a conference in Cairo, or some Cardinals went there. And, uh, I was for everything that they were for, and against everything that they were against.

DR. RESNICK: SO, YOU DON'T HAVE ANY REAL DIFFERENCES FROM THE POPE'S RELIGIOUS IDEAS?

JOHN SALVI: No.

DR. RESNICK: NOW, IN THE STATEMENT THAT YOU MADE TO THE PRESS--AND I ACTUALLY DIDN'T GET A CHANCE TO SEE THAT, I JUST HEARD A LITTLE ABOUT IT--WHAT WAS THE MESSAGE YOU WERE ANXIOUS TO PUT OUT AT THAT TIME?

JOHN SALVI: Well, a few things that I don't think that the Catholic Church is addressing.

DR. RESNICK: AND WHAT IS THAT?

JOHN SALVI: The financial persecution of Catholics, in this country as well as worldwide.

DR. RESNICK: HOW DOES THAT WORK? HOW ARE THEY BEING PERSECUTED?

JOHN SALVI: Hmm-- Mainly in the form of individuals who are wealthy and print money and control the country for the most part as far as the free Masons and the Masonic Temple, and British Petroleum.

DR. RESNICK: FREE MASONS, BRITISH PETROLEUM YOU SAY?

JOHN SALVI: Yeah. Buying up companies, making monopolies, controlling the economy. They know who the Catholics are, laying off certain Catholics. ... (inaudible) is also not only in there is in this world, but also in the public school systems as well as police departments and fire departments. It's a layoff procedure for Catholics.

DR. RESNICK: AND HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS IS GOING ON?

JOHN SALVI: Everyone knows what's going on.

DR. RESNICK: WELL, I DIDN'T. IS IT PUBLISHED IN NEWSPAPERS OR MAGAZINES OR--

JOHN SALVI: This is what someone who's in denial usually brings up. But, I don't wish to answer that because the enemies of our Church are extremely clever. And there is a way to prove it. But, you'd have to get all the information on everyone whose ever been laid off, and their status as to whether they were a Catholic or not.

DR. RESNICK: EXACTLY. AND HAS THAT BEEN DONE? HAS SOMEONE ACTUALLY SYSTEMATICALLY SHOWN THIS IS--

JOHN SALVI: This is my complaint with the Catholic Church. We, as a people, should be more aware of our financial situation. A lot of Catholics are losing their homes because the economy isn't good, losing their jobs.

DR. RESNICK: NOW IS THIS DONE IN A DISCRIMINATING WAY, OR IS IT JUST THEY GET LAID OFF LIKE EVERYONE ELSE DOES?

JOHN SALVI: Well, let's say there's a shipyard, and 25-- 25 out of a 100 of the individuals that worked there were Catholic. Fifteen of them or say ten of them that were Catholic would get laid off. If there was to be any layoffs in the company--

DR. RESNICK: SHEER PROPORTION.

JOHN SALVI: Yeah. It could be anyone else in the-- in the company, they wouldn't lay off any of their own. They'd lay off about ten other Catholics and keep about fifteen of them on.

DR. RESNICK: NOW, WHAT IF THERE ARE CATHOLICS IN CHARGE OF THE COMPANY, WOULD THAT MAKE A DIFFERENCE?

JOHN SALVI: That's the problem they face many times. They don't like Catholics to get high positions. But, the problem is most of the Catholics aren't really completely aware of the persecution. It's not that they're not aware of who they're laying off, or to say that Catholics never laid off a Catholic. But, they're usually not aware that they are laying off a Catholic, because they don't want religion to have anything to do with the business world, so that there won't be a persecution. But, it's the Catholics that are the only ones that don't-- that don't bring religion into laying someone off. So you wouldn't know if someone was for the most part.

However, the Masons in the Masonic Temple, what they would do is they know exactly everything about you. So they would lay you off. But, a Catholic wouldn't pick up on that, because a Catholic doesn't keep track of that. That's not something you're supposed to do because you're not supposed to be persecuting anyone religiously. What they do is they take, well they'll say this person's from India, their religion is Buddha, we don't want them to be persecuted so we'll bring this case before a Catholic, and we'll say to him, "Would you persecute him?" "No, no, no, no." Well, that blinds him completely because he's not going to see the fact that his people are being persecuted.

Not to say that a lot of Catholics don't know about this, but they're not really up on it. The Catholic Church is being floored financially. It has-- Everything from the Welfare system, uh, being set up so that a Catholic couple that needs assistance, who is married, wouldn't receive it, to denying a young man or a woman Welfare benefits. As if they could afford to live and exist-- they could afford to live and exist.

DR. RESNICK: IS THIS A WORLDWIDE CONSPIRACY OR JUST IN THIS COUNTRY.

JOHN SALVI: Not completely worldwide. It's based out of England. And, uh, of course the Masons control most of the government of Italy. It's not strictly confined to Masons. They're not the only group that persecutes the Catholic Church. But, they have a large role in doing it.

Not to say that every member of their temple is completely gung-ho on nailing the Catholic Church, obviously.

DR. RESNICK: IS THIS SUBTLE OR IS THIS REALLY A PLANNED OR SYSTEMATICALLY--

JOHN SALVI: It's not completely a persecution as much as it is refusal to help, or denying any form of assistance. Making yourself the government and denying the Catholics' assistance. Making yourselves powerful, denying the Catholic people jobs.

Depressions are not something that has to do with a time scale. It has to do with lack of Christian leadership. You can control the economy like you control a puppet, with strings. A smart man who's good would control it in a forms that everyone would have work, which is very possible.

A Mason who isn't good, not to say that all Masons aren't good, would control it in a way so as to make it a layoff here, a layoff there, layoff Catholics here, layoff Catholics here, hurt the economy there. You can look at an economy on a table, or bring it down forth on a table, look at every-- every different facet of an economy, and you could figure out exactly how to floor the Catholic Church. Because the Catholic people think a certain way. Sheep tend to think differently than a colt which you consider a lion or a wolf, right? If we're going to talk biblically here, as far as what Jesus would say about the Masonic Temple or persecution, this group, that group.

The organized attack on the church. Now, the sheep usually get floored and don't really realize how to stop it, how to be observant of what's going on. Okay. My concern with the Catholic Church is the Catholic Church does not seem to address certain issues. Now, this is what always amazed me. Not to go against the Church, I would not do that, however I will correct it if possible.

There seems to be something here that's interesting. We're not supposed to bring up money in church because we don't want to be like the Pharisees(?) and the ... (inaudible) and teach the law. ... (inaudible) We're not supposed to bring up money in the church, however the church asks for a tip, a tenth of your income, which really hurts a lot of the Catholic people.

It benefits them if that money's spent properly. But, many times it isn't. It's spent in areas where it wouldn't do any good. I'll explain that later.

The Catholic Church says, "Well, we shouldn't have a Welfare system in the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church shouldn't print money and then distribute Welfare checks to the people to compensate inefficient(?) wage to make sure they don't lose their homes. The Masons have a Welfare system. They're taken care of, guaranteed job. None of them do without, as well as a couple of other groups.

My concern is the leaders in the Catholic Church will say, when brought up that we need a Welfare system in the church, well let's look to the people that persecute us and hope that they will give up what they need. Okay, that's one thing. You can't collect Welfare unless you're unmarried, had one kid, one child. Different laws that are in that system--

DR. RESNICK: THE SECULAR WORLD OF STATE WELFARE AND SO FORTH.

JOHN SALVI: Right. A lot of people that need it don't get it. Most of the people that need it that are good and married, can't get it. Now some people are married and good; they need it too. But you shouldn't set up laws so that you have to be an unmarried to collect.

DR. RESNICK: OKAY, LET ME JUST ASK A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS TO MAKE SURE I UNDERSTAND.

JOHN SALVI: Now, the leaders in the Church don't address the problems of the people. They say well, we shouldn't have-- we shouldn't be like the chief priests or teachers of the law, as Jesus would have said. That's the "they" I'm persecuting. Those same figure types who, you know--

If you ask the congregation for a tenth of their incomes, what's the difference between that and saying the Catholic Church will start putting money, say a currency, U.S. currency, you wouldn't print currency that isn't an already established currency.

DR. RESNICK: SO, THE CHURCH COULD PRINT UNITED STATES DOLLARS?

JOHN SALVI: United States dollars, just as Masonic Temple prints United States dollars.

DR. RESNICK: WOULD THAT BE LIKE ILLEGAL IN THE EYES OF THE GOVERNMENT FOR THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TO PRINT MONEY?

JOHN SALVI: Now, that's funny because that's a law written by the people who persecute the Catholics. They don't want the Catholics to have the same system that they have.

DR. RESNICK: HOW WOULD YOU SOLVE IT?

JOHN SALVI: How would you solve it?

DR. RESNICK: HOW WOULD YOU SOLVE IT?

JOHN SALVI: Let the individuals out of jail that know how to print money and you employ them in the Catholic Church in Rome. And then you begin to print the currency to fill the Vatican Bank with U.S.-- with a number of U.S. currency. We'll say, "This currency is printed by the A currency"-- the letter "A" is on the dollar, it's printed in Massachusetts, or this currency is printed in California, this currency-- but it's all U.S. currency.

But, what the Catholic Church needs is the "S" on there. One of the numbers of U.S. currency. And you begin to print that. Now, you don't have to let the individuals that know how to print money out of jail. There's another way to do it too. Well, there's quite a few individuals that know how to print money out there. You just have to run ads in the paper and television and so on and so forth. And, I'm sure that the good Lord would call these individuals forward.

DR. RESNICK: MIGHT THIS BE DONE IN THE U.S., PRINTING OF MONEY?

JOHN SALVI: Could be done in any country on earth.

DR. RESNICK: BUT, NOW WOULD U.S. TREASURY AGENTS GO AND SAY "YOU'RE COUNTERFEITING MONEY" AND BREAK IT UP?

JOHN SALVI: Who cares what they say.

DR. RESNICK: WELL, CAN PEOPLE GO TO PRISON FOR IT?

JOHN SALVI: You're going to send 35 million people to prison?

DR. RESNICK: WELL, THE PEOPLE PRINTING WOULD JUST BE A SMALL NUMBER, ACTUALLY PRINTING UP THE MONEY, RIGHT?

JOHN SALVI: Not if the 35 million say, "If you lay a hair on their heads something else is going to happen."

DR. RESNICK: I SEE, SO IN OTHER WORDS IT WOULD TAKE A REAL UNITY OF THE ENTIRE AMERICAN CATHOLIC POPULATION.

JOHN SALVI: Let me explain. The Masonic Temple could cream the Catholic Church. A lot of other groups could cream it as well. But, is it worth it to them?

In other words, if there are 35 million Catholics-- say there are 20 million Catholics-- you could get 10 million young men well armed to defend the currency in that church, which isn't against God's laws. It would be against God's laws for people to lose their homes and get persecuted.

DR. RESNICK: RIGHT, IT WOULD BE AGAINST U.S. LAWS BUT NOT GOD'S LAW?

JOHN SALVI: That would mean that roughly at least that number of Masons or other members of a different group that would persecute the Catholic Church would get nailed. No one wants to do that. It's not worth it to them.

DR. RESNICK: IT'S LIKE A RISK OF CIVIL WAR THEN, FOR CATHOLICS TO ARM THEMSELVES AND TAKE CONTROL--

JOHN SALVI: No, they're crazy if they don't.

DR. RESNICK: YOU FAVOR THAT. THEY DO WHATEVER THEY NEED TO--

JOHN SALVI: well, the Mason Temple and a lot of other groups are closing in on the Catholic Church like with credit and debt. Eventually the Catholic people are going to have to sit down and stop being silly. They've been that way forever. Stop being silly.

DR. RESNICK: EXPLAIN THE CREDIT AND DEBT.

JOHN SALVI: Let me explain what silly is. Silly is we all sit there in church and we don't look at each other and we don't talk to one another. We don't have meetings or councils or anything of the sort. All we say to one another is, when you get home once in awhile, maybe like once or twice a year we'll talk about what was written about the Anti-Christ, what was written about this individual and that individual, and how we're going to be persecuted at the end of the world. Well, this is pretty simple and silly because we're being persecuted right now. Taking religion out of schools, laying off Catholic school teachers in the public school systems, so it's really possible.

The Catholic people aren't a bright group of people. There's no a lot of IQ going on in the Catholic Church.

DR. RESNICK: AS WELL AS ANYONE OUT THERE.

JOHN SALVI: Well, big time.

DR. RESNICK: HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT?

JOHN SALVI: Well, if they were bright they wouldn't be persecuted, would they?

DR. RESNICK: THEY MIGHT BE NAIVE, BUT THAT WOULDN'T MEAN THEY'RE NOT BRIGHT.

JOHN SALVI: I think they're downright blind. Not to say that a lot of Catholics don't see; a lot of them do. But, a lot of them aren't active and public about it.

Another thing you have to take into consideration is there are a lot of individuals who would help the Catholic Church who had a grandmother who was Catholic 10,000 years ago, who would say that if we started to gather like this and actually got a movement going they would also plan and assist. This needs to be done by the Pope, the Cardinals, the bishops, the priests, the congregations. Think of how much power the Catholic Church--

DR. RESNICK: WITHIN THE HIERARCHICAL OF THE LEADERSHIP?

JOHN SALVI: Well, if every Catholic was like me, just like me, the Catholic Church would have anything it wanted.

DR. RESNICK: ... (inaudible) DO WHATEVER IT TAKES?

JOHN SALVI: Well, no. Within certain .. (inaudible)ifications, is that the word? Certain parameters. You don't want to step outside the realm of being Christian for the most part. You're defending yourself. Anyone who stands up against that Church, and its ability to collect, is in trouble if the Catholics weren't simple. If every Catholic was like me their standard of living would be excellent. They would all have good jobs. They would all have what they need. And not one of them would lose their homes. I guarantee it.

DR. RESNICK: NOW, DO YOU HAVE A SPECIAL ROLE IN THIS?

JOHN SALVI: A special role in it? There's not much to have a role in.

DR. RESNICK: I MEAN--

JOHN SALVI: There's not much there. The Catholic (simultaneous conversation)

DR. RESNICK: THERE'S A LACK OF LEADERSHIP AS I'VE HEARD FROM YOU.

JOHN SALVI: Big time.

DR. RESNICK: ARE YOU GOING TO ... (inaudible) AS A LEADER?

JOHN SALVI: The Catholic youth is not bright. If the Catholic youth were bright they'd flood that church with priests, flood it. And there's a reason. You'd fight for a currency. Fight to change laws that say priests can't get married. They don't see completely what can be.

But, the Catholic Church needs to talk about it.

DR. RESNICK: LET ME COME BACK TO YOUR ROLE. DO YOU SEE YOURSELF AS A POTENTIAL LEADER OF THE CATHOLIC PEOPLE IN BRINGING ABOUT BETTER TIMES?

JOHN SALVI: I see each and every one of the Catholic people to read what I want to tell them and become that leader. You don't have one leader. You don't say well, this individual is out of here. Everyone will be a leader. Everyone will lead a program.

DR. RESNICK: BUT, THAT'S GOOD THEORETICALLY BUT--

JOHN SALVI: No, it's good period. It's great.

DR. RESNICK: BUT PRACTICALLY YOU NEED LEADERSHIP.

JOHN SALVI: You do need leadership; you need a leadership council. You have that. It's called a Pope. It's called a cardinal; it's called a bishop. But, not all of them are completely in tuned to what should be.

DR. RESNICK: SO, YOU DON'T SEE YOURSELF SUPPLANTING--

JOHN SALVI: We could wipe out the Anti-Christ.

DR. RESNICK: WHO IS THE ANTI-CHRIST?

JOHN SALVI: A biblical figure. The devil being mankind, the church being ... (inaudible) from the devil. The Anti-Christ being the leader of the devil.

DR. RESNICK: THE ANTI-CHRIST THE LEADER OF THE DEVIL?

JOHN SALVI: Yes. I know it sounds crazy.

DR. RESNICK: IS THE DEVIL ONE PERSON?

JOHN SALVI: No, the devil's mankind.

DR. RESNICK: THE DEVIL IS MANKIND.

JOHN SALVI: You have to understand something, it's not that hard to obtain, you don't have to be that bright. It's a pretty simple thing. It's called basic understanding. It's called the Welfare system in the Catholic Church. It's called leaders in the Catholic Church standing up against-- Let me give you an example. A Catholic gets laid off. The Catholic Church says, "Well, he's going to show up for work Monday; he's not laid off." They say he is, but we say he isn't." Thirty-five million people say that Tom Jones isn't laid off. Why? Because John Salvi says he wasn't.

DR. RESNICK: SO, YOU ... (inaudible) LEADERSHIP ROLE ... (inaudible) NOW, DO YOU HAVE A SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP TO GOD? WHAT IS THAT?

JOHN SALVI: Thirty-five million people say Tom Jones is not laid off.

DR. RESNICK: BUT YOU SAID BECAUSE TOM JONES-

JOHN SALVI: Now, Tom Jones goes to work and the Masons at work say, "Well, you're fired." But, thirty-five million people say, "Tom Jones isn't fired because we don't think he is. And he's going to get that check at the end of the week. Because if he doesn't get that check you're not going to be a happy little farmer."

DR. RESNICK: AND WHAT WOULD HAPPEN?

JOHN SALVI: Thirty-five million people get really angry

DR. RESNICK: AND THEN WHAT? HOW ARE YOU ACTUALLY GOING TO IMPACT THAT EMPLOYER TO MAKE HIM COMPLY?

JOHN SALVI: He won't be the employer anymore.

DR. RESNICK: HOW ARE YOU GOING TO DO THAT?

JOHN SALVI: Thirty-five million people are going to make sure someone replaces him.

DR. RESNICK: HOW?

JOHN SALVI: Going in and replacing him?

DR. RESNICK: THROUGH VIOLENCE MAYBE? WELL, HOW DO YOU REPLACE HIM-- (simultaneous conversation)

JOHN SALVI: A position of power. You own a company. Who said you own a company? If you're bad leadership, the Catholic Church could say he owns the company. What are you going to do about it. You've got thirty-five million people--

DR. RESNICK: LET'S SAY HE SAYS, "I'M THE BOSS OF THIS COMPANY AND I DON'T CARE WHAT THIRTY-FIVE MILLION CATHOLICS SAY--"

JOHN SALVI: You don't understand how evil--

DR. RESNICK: FORGET GOOD AND EVIL. HOW IS THE CATHOLIC GROUP GOING TO CHANGE THAT IF IT DOESN'T USE VIOLENCE, IF HE REFUSES TO BE REMOVED.

JOHN SALVI: Let me give you and example. Years ago, talking about biblical times, learning ... (inaudible) so to speak, Nero, the persecution and all that kind of thing. Well, don't have to do that anymore. There's another way to do it, it's financial, a financial persecution.

DR. RESNICK: I UNDERSTAND HOW YOU SEE IT. BUT, WHEN IT COMES TO CORRECTIVE ACTION--

JOHN SALVI: You don't understand how awful financial persecution is.

DR. RESNICK: NEVER WANT TO RELEASE POWER VOLUNTARILY. HOW WILL YOU GET THE PEOPLE OUT OF POWER IF THEY SAY THIS GUY IS LAID OFF.

JOHN SALVI: You don't need to get them out of power. The Catholic Church needs to start printing money and defending its leaders. In other words, the cardinals and the bishops are threatened.

DR. RESNICK: BY WHOM?

JOHN SALVI: If they want to hurt a cardinal or a bishop or a priest because he's printing money and they don't like it, maybe one of them will get hurt. That's not unchristian.

DR. RESNICK: WHO WILL HURT THEM?

JOHN SALVI: Who will hurt the Catholic priest, who will hurt the bishop?

DR. RESNICK: THE U.S. TREASURY AGENTS. THEY'LL COME AND ARREST HIM FOR--

JOHN SALVI: No, they won't, because I said they wouldn't.

DR. RESNICK: BET WHERE DO YOU GET YOUR--

JOHN SALVI: You don't understand something. You don't understand power; obviously you do. But, you're bringing forth a statement on to me to try and get information. And I'm just telling you something--

DR. RESNICK: DON'T MISUNDERSTAND ME, I'M NOT SAYING--

JOHN SALVI: You're talking about thirty-five million people.

DR. RESNICK: BUT IF THEY'RE ALL SHEEP LIKE RIGHT NOW.

JOHN SALVI: That's the problem.

DR. RESNICK: RIGHT. SO IN ORDER TO EFFECT THINGS, TO GET PEOPLE TO GIVE UP POWER, THEY HAVE TO IF NECESSARY USE FORCE OR THEY'RE GOING TO REMAIN SHEEP, AREN'T THEY?

JOHN SALVI: Yeah, but a sheep can turn into something called a ram.

DR. RESNICK: ALRIGHT. AND THE RAM IS PREPARED TO DO WHAT?

JOHN SALVI: Defend the currency. You know, the Catholics have felt wars and wars and wars, been recruited, drafted, oh, you name it for nothing, absolutely nothing. Achieving absolutely nothing. If Catholic people were intelligent they'd start to gather a philosophy.

DR. RESNICK: LOOK, HOLD ON--

JOHN SALVI: ... (inaudible) you're not supposed to take the ... (inaudible) John mentioned it. At the end of the world you're not supposed to take the mark of the beast. Nothing has been said by the Pope, the Apostles on priests of congregation in an organized fashion as to whether we're going to take this ... (inaudible) This is absolutely ridiculous.

DR. RESNICK: TAKE WHAT OR NOT?

JOHN SALVI: All I've heard from the Catholic Church was this, which I consider myself the Catholic Church. However, the leadership is-- the eyes of Mary the statue were bleeding and the toenails of Jesus was weeping. Three roses and a book in Madgegoria. All I've heard about these different places, I haven't heard anything that's actually going to impact us as a people. No.

Biblically we're not supposed to take the mark of the beast, biblically. According to the Bible you won't be living on a new earth with the Messiah for a thousand years if you take the mark of the beast inside with this new age movement, the United Nations so to speak.

DR. RESNICK: LET ME MAKE SURE I UNDERSTAND--

JOHN SALVI: Now, if the Catholic people--

DR. RESNICK: HOLD ON, MR. SALVI, BECAUSE AS YOU GO ON LET ME MAKE SURE I'M UNDERSTANDING IT. WHEN YOU SAY PEOPLE AREN'T SUPPOSED TO TAKE THE MARK OF THE BEAST, EXACTLY WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? WHAT DOES ACCEPTING THE MARK--

JOHN SALVI: Well, a credit card with a chip in it. It would do away with cash money. The problem is it will give the Masonic Temple absolute power over the Catholic Church. In every way you could wipe out someone's account just like that. A lot of other ways too. This isn't good.

The actual idea of it is excellent, but we have to keep an eye on who's running it. Okay.

DR. RESNICK: SO, BY THE MARK OF THE BEAST YOU MEAN A CREDIT CARD OR A CASHLESS SOCIETY?

JOHN SALVI: A cashless society where you have absolutely no rights. The government would be absolutely powerful.

DR. RESNICK: AND THAT WOULD BE TRUE OF ALL CITIZENS OR JUST CATHOLICS?

JOHN SALVI: Oh, the Catholics, they get wailed on. Anyone who doesn't take it is going to be in trouble. I think it's comical because they won't do it like that. What they'll do is over a period of time. Okay. There wasn't always property tax in the United States of America at a certain point in time. They enacted a property tax which enslaved people. They say, "Hey kid, your taxes, pay this; hey kid, your taxes, pay that." Yeah, but a lot of people are receiving money. So when they pay the taxes, no big deal.

But, most of the Catholics don't receive any money. And when they pay the taxes, it's a real big deal. See where I'm coming from?

DR. RESNICK: YES.

JOHN SALVI: Okay. Now, there's a problem in this. The Catholic Church keeps talking, once in awhile I've heard ... (inaudible) conversations, oh Jesus, I mean, what a-- say, Christmas and someone mentions the Anti-Christ of something, or "What do you think of this book?" or that book.

Never understand that. Why don't you bring these things up at church. The Anti-Christ as an individual-- If you have five soldiers here who belong to the Anti-Christ to five soldiers here who belong to David--

DR. RESNICK: WHO'S DAVID?

JOHN SALVI: Of course. If you have an equal number of individual-- you don't even need an equal number.

DR. RESNICK: THE FORCES OF GOOD ARE STRONGER THAN THOSE OF EVIL?

JOHN SALVI: Yeah. Well, supposedly biblically near the end of the world Christ will come and save his sheep.

DR. RESNICK: ALRIGHT--

JOHN SALVI: Now, hold on. What I was talking about the Anti-Christ-- where do you make a decision on something. The problem with the sheep is they'll usually make a decision like, "Well, I go to church on Sunday, I go here, I go here, but I won't help this individual." That's soft.

A wolf would say, "I'll go to church on Sunday, I'll go ... (inaudible), but I'm going to help this individual." A lion would say, "I'm going to church (talking fast), but I'm going to be that individual." Okay. We're dealing with tough, smart people for the most part. By tough, I mean if they're not smart they are tough; and if they're smart, they're also tough.

And we run society-- Jesus knows who owns Mobile, British Petroleum, who controls the economy. Those people control the world.

DR. RESNICK: NOW, LET ME UNDERSTAND SPECIFICALLY YOUR ROLE, JOHN SALVI'S ROLE, AS YOU SEE IT. HOW CAN YOU MAKE A DIFFERENCE? YOU HAVE A STATEMENT TO MAKE, YOU WOULD LIKE CATHOLICS TO BE UNITED, YOU LIKE THEM TO PRINT THEIR CURRENCY, I UNDERSTAND THAT.

JOHN SALVI: Not their currency. A U.S. currency. Or, an international-- you know, it evolves. You don't say one-- one day-- (simultaneous conversation)

DR. RESNICK: ARE YOU POSITIVE THIS WOULD SOLVE THE PROBLEM FOR THE CATHOLICS?

JOHN SALVI: Definitely. Definitely.

DR. RESNICK: ALRIGHT. AND YOU HAVE NO DOUBT IN YOUR MIND THAT CATHOLICS ARE BEING PERSECUTED IN THIS--

JOHN SALVI: Oh, without a doubt. Everyone knows that. I mean, they're not driving them out and murdering them at the stake in the middle of the city square, but--

DR. RESNICK: BUT IT'S SYSTEMATIC ECONOMIC.

JOHN SALVI: That did happen in some areas of Europe during World War II. I mean, there is a persecution there. People didn't know about it. To a great extent--

DR. RESNICK: NOW, ARE OTHER GROUPS BEING PERSECUTED OR JUST CATHOLICS?

JOHN SALVI: Some other groups.

DR. RESNICK: WHAT OTHER GROUPS?

JOHN SALVI: I don't want to get into that right now. I want to speak about something else. The God or the Holy Spirit tends to put the Catholic people to sleep, make them lazy. They wouldn't be sheep if you didn't do that. I mean, the very biblical nature of a sheep is to be submissive. To cower down to the "lion's ... (inaudible) of the world."

DR. RESNICK: OKAY--

JOHN SALVI: Wait a minute, let me finish.

DR. RESNICK: FINISH UP THIS THOUGHT BECAUSE THEN I WANT TO GET ONTO SOMETHING ELSE.

JOHN SALVI: The sheep needs to see through that. They need to be educated about it. No, no-- They need to focus on things. Sheep did-- they see everything, need to focus on something. Or, you could say the sheep see one thing; that's natural. But, they don't see the whole focus of the Church, what the Church can be.

DR. RESNICK: NOW, THIS BUSINESS--

JOHN SALVI: Are we going to take the mark of the beast. I think it's comical because the Catholic Church is ... (inaudible) complete denial. Now, wait a minute. Hold on a minute. I want to do this to aggravate you for one reason.

DR. RESNICK: PLEASE, MR. SALVI.

JOHN SALVI: You made me do this interview, and I haven't eaten in four days. Besides my poisoning down in Norfolk.

DR. RESNICK: BUT, THERE ARE SOME THINGS WE NEED TO GET OVER TODAY. YOU KNOW, WE HAVE JUST A LITTLE BIT AMOUNT OF TIME, AND I HAVE THE BASIC IDEA ABOUT YOUR THOUGHT ... (inaudible). LET ME MOVE ALONG AND I'LL GET AT THE AREAS THAT I THINK ARE IMPORTANT, THAT WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND AT THIS STAGE.

ARE YOU IN A LEADERSHIP POSITION WITH REGARD TO HAVING CATHOLICS PRINT THEIR CURRENCY AND SO FORTH?

JOHN SALVI: Definitely.

DR. RESNICK: NOW IS THIS SELF-APPOINTED OR HAVE YOU BEEN APPOINTED BY SOMEONE ELSE?

JOHN SALVI: I haven't been appointed by anyone.

DR. RESNICK: HAS GOD CALLED YOU TO SERVE IN THIS ROLE?

JOHN SALVI: That's a private issue. If God's people or say the Catholic-- I won't go as far as saying God's people, God's people, because I don't know who he wants. Okay. The Catholic people need to assume a position. Instead of just going to church, sitting there, and going like this, oh gee, it's so boring in church and all that stuff. Well, it's boring at church because you make it boring, stupid. It's not necessarily the priest's fault. The congregation needs to go as individuals to the priest, and tell them as individuals on a piece of paper--

DR. RESNICK: MR. SALVI, HOLD ON.

JOHN SALVI: It's like this, you take a sheet of--

DR. RESNICK: HOLD IT; HOLD IT.

JOHN SALVI: Please, please, Mr. Resnick, you take a sheep's hand you explain--

DR. RESNICK: HOLD IT, HOLD IT, HOLD IT.

JOHN SALVI: What I'd like--

DR. RESNICK: HOLD IT, HOLD IT THERE MR. SALVI. I WANT TO UNDERSTAND YOUR ROLE.

JOHN SALVI: You already know my role.

DR. RESNICK: NO, I DON'T. I DON'T KNOW YOUR ROLE.

JOHN SALVI: If you let me speak you'd know my role.

DR. RESNICK: OKAY, BUT DON'T GET GENERAL ON ME. TELL ME, "MY ROLE--"

JOHN SALVI: Everything is general. Higher focus on--

DR. RESNICK: BEGIN THE SENTENCE YOUR ROLE IS WHAT IN THIS EFFORT? ARE YOU THE LEADER? ARE YOU ONE SHEEP AMONG MANY? FROM WHERE DO YOU GET YOUR AUTHORITY? FROM WHERE DO YOU GET YOUR KNOWLEDGE? I WANT YOU TO MAKE IT MORE PERSONAL.

JOHN SALVI: From myself.

DR. RESNICK: IT'S ALL WITHIN YOU.

JOHN SALVI: I pray.

DR. RESNICK: OKAY. BUT, GOD HAS NOT INSTRUCTED YOU TO--

JOHN SALVI: I go to confession, I receive communion

DR. RESNICK: HAS GOD INSTRUCTED YOU TO DO THIS?

JOHN SALVI: Has-- Has God instructed me to do this?

DR. RESNICK: YES.

JOHN SALVI: No. In so many ways-- When you see your people hurting, does God have to come down from heaven and say, "John, I want you to help the people." If you didn't, God would go (making noise).

DR. RESNICK: OKAY, SO IT'S YOUR OWN INITIATIVE? YOU'VE SEEN THE CATHOLICS BEING HURT BY THE PERSECUTION, AND YOU'RE COMING FORWARD TO TRY AND HELP, BUT IT'S NOT BECAUSE OF ANY MESSAGE FROM GOD. IS THAT CORRECT NOW?

JOHN SALVI: Any message from God. I just explained that.

DR. RESNICK: I SPECIFICALLY DIRECTED YOU.

JOHN SALVI: Why do you keep asking the same question twice?

DR. RESNICK: BECAUSE I'M NOT GETTING AN ANSWER WHICH IS CLEAR TO ME.

JOHN SALVI: All you have to do is look at the tape. You'll review this won't you. Did you think I wouldn't tell you?

DR. RESNICK: WELL, I DON'T KNOW THAT I HAVE AN ANSWER ON THE TAPE. BECAUSE YOU'VE TALKED IN GENERAL TERMS

JOHN SALVI: Okay, let me finish what I was saying.

DR. RESNICK: WAIT A MINUTE, WAIT A MINUTE NOW. I WANT YOU TO JUST CONFIRM AS I UNDERSTAND IT, YOU, JOHN SALVI, UPON OBSERVING THE PERSECUTION HAVE SELECTED YOURSELF TO BE HELPFUL RATHER THAN ANY SPECIFIC CALL FROM GOD. IS THAT CORRECT OR NOT?

JOHN SALVI: I would assume that. I would assume it would look that way.

DR. RESNICK: WELL, IS THAT TRUE?

JOHN SALVI: I don't understand why you keep asking that question.

DR. RESNICK: YOU SAY YOU WOULD ASSUME. IS IT TRUE OR NOT?

JOHN SALVI: Psychiatrists always tend to ask the same question over and over and over again.

DR. RESNICK: HAVE YOU HAD PRIOR EXPERIENCE WITH PSYCHIATRISTS.

JOHN SALVI: No. But I can tell. How else would you be a psychiatrist.

DR. RESNICK: (laughter)

JOHN SALVI: You try to make people crazy. Look--

DR. RESNICK: NOW, LET'S GO ONTO SOMETHING ELSE HERE.

JOHN SALVI: Let me-- please.

DR. RESNICK: CAN WE GO ON TO SOMETHING ELSE. IF I WERE TO SHOW YOU FACTS AND FIGURES WHICH SHOWED THAT CATHOLICS WERE NOT BEING SYSTEMATICALLY DISCRIMINATED AGAINST ECONOMICALLY, WOULD THAT CHANGE YOUR MIND?

JOHN SALVI: Oh no. We could go through the records and--

DR. RESNICK: I'M NOT SAYING IT'S TRUE. I'M JUST SAYING IF I WERE TO SHOW THAT TO YOU (simultaneous conversation)-- IF I SHOWED YOU FACTS, IS YOUR MIND OPEN TO BEING CHANGED, OR THERE'S NO QUESTION--

JOHN SALVI: Oh, I love facts. Bring as many facts forward as you can.

DR. RESNICK: WOULD YOU BE WILLING TO CHANGE YOUR MIND ABOUT PERSECUTION IF I SHOWED YOU A CONTRA-- THING.

JOHN SALVI: Oh no.

DR. RESNICK: YOU WOULD NOT CHANGE YOUR MIND.

JOHN SALVI: I'd like to show you-- I'd like to show you how many Catholics have lost their homes.

DR. RESNICK: OKAY, SO TO YOU IT'S--

JOHN SALVI: The vast majority of people--

DR. RESNICK: THERE'S NO QUESTION ABOUT IT--

JOHN SALVI: The Masons never lose their homes. Because they get help, they get good jobs, they're cared for. They're smart.

DR. RESNICK: OKAY, LET ME CHANGE SOMETHING.

JOHN SALVI: The Catholic people--

DR. RESNICK: MR. SALVI, LET ME CHANGE SUBJECTS.

JOHN SALVI: Yeah.

DR. RESNICK: THE NEXT AREA I WANT TO TALK WITH YOU ABOUT IS YOUR OWN ATTITUDE TOWARD ABORTION.

JOHN SALVI: That has nothing to do with this right now. Please let me finish of I'll just keep speaking and interrupting.

DR. RESNICK: MR. SALVI, LET ME EXPLAIN WHY.

JOHN SALVI: You wanted me here for this interview.

DR. RESNICK: YES. LET ME EXPLAIN WHY, MR. SALVI. IT'S IMPORTANT I HAVE YOUR COOPERATION, AND YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOING ON HERE. I'M NOT ASKING YOU RIGHT NOW--

JOHN SALVI: Are you going to grant me a period of silence so I can speak after this?

DR. RESNICK: YES.

JOHN SALVI: Okay, good, ten minutes preferably.

DR. RESNICK: BUT, I HOPE YOU'LL SPEAK ON THE ISSUES I'M ASKING YOU TO SPEAK ON. I'M NOT ASKING YOU NOW ABOUT-- (interruption)

JOHN SALVI: Is there any way I could get a glass of water.

DR. RESNICK: OKAY, LET'S WAIT FOR HIM TO LEAVE AND THEN WE'LL CONTINUE.

JOHN SALVI: Okay.

DR. RESNICK: OKAY, MR. SALVI, LET ME EXPLAIN WHY I'M ASKING YOU THIS. I'M NOT ASKING YOU RIGHT NOW ANYTHING ABOUT THE CRIME YOU'RE CHARGED WITH. YOU ARE A CATHOLIC, YOU HAVE STRONG BELIEFS AS A CATHOLIC. I SIMPLY WANT TO UNDERSTAND YOUR VIEWS ON ABORTION.

JOHN SALVI: Of course, I have the right to refuse the question.

DR. RESNICK: RIGHT, BUT YOU UNDERSTAND I'M WORKING WITH YOUR DEFENSE ATTORNEY IN TRYING TO BE HELPFUL. AND IT'S NOT LIKE YOU'RE BEING ASKED IN COURT WHERE YOU HAVE AN ABSOLUTE RIGHT TO RAISE-- YOUR FIFTH AMENDMENT RIGHT NOT TO INCRIMINATE YOURSELF. BUT, I JUST WANT TO UNDERSTAND YOUR VIEWS ON ABORTION, PERSONALLY AND AS A CATHOLIC.

JOHN SALVI: I believe along the lines of what the Pope believes. Whatever the Pope believes, I believe.

DR. RESNICK: ALRIGHT.

JOHN SALVI: The Pope delegates his authority to the cardinals, to the bishops--

DR. RESNICK: THE POPE HAS TAKEN A VERY FIXED--

JOHN SALVI: Yes, and I back the Pope up.

DR. RESNICK: OKAY. AND WHAT IS THAT POSITION?

JOHN SALVI: He's against it completely.

DR. RESNICK: AND DO YOU FEEL THE SAME WAY?

JOHN SALVI: Yes.

DR. RESNICK: ALRIGHT. HOW STRONGLY--

JOHN SALVI: I'm also against quite a few forms of birth control too.

DR. RESNICK: LET'S STAY WITH ABORTION, AND JUST KEEP IT SIMPLE HERE. HOW STRONG AN ADVOCATE ARE YOU FOR THE ANTI-ABORTION--

JOHN SALVI: As strong as the Pope is. If the Pope says "jump" the Catholic people should jump; if the Pope says "sit" the Catholic people should sit. The ones who don't sit when the Pope says "sit" and the ones who don't jump when the Pope says "jump" are the ones that aren't smart. There's a reason for that.

DR. RESNICK: YOU BELIEVE IN ADHERENCE TO THE POPE'S ... (inaudible)?

JOHN SALVI: Yes. (simultaneous conversation) -- cross many lines, it goes into a financial issue. Will the Catholic Church have their own Welfare system.

DR. RESNICK: OKAY, LET ME STAY WITH THE ABORTION QUESTION.

JOHN SALVI: They will if every member of the Catholic Church is like me. I guarantee it.

DR. RESNICK: OKAY. NOW, WITH REGARD TO THE ABORTION QUESTION. SOME INDIVIDUALS HAVE BEEN POLITICALLY ACTIVE, WHETHER CARRYING PLACARDS OR--

JOHN SALVI: Some individuals are politically active, are they carrying placards or--

DR. RESNICK: OR VOTING PEOPLE INTO OFFICE WHO MAY OUTLAW ABORTION AND SO FORTH.

JOHN SALVI: First of all, that's not how you do it.

DR. RESNICK: HOW DO YOU WANT ... (inaudible) ABORTION? HOW DO YOU DO IT?

JOHN SALVI: Abortion, strangely enough-- especially the way-- You can't force, for the most part, religion on people. I can't tell-- I can't say to you, "You can't do this." I can try and stop you, but I can't say, "You can't do this." God, for the most part, wants people to make up their own choice, so He can set up a system of punishment for-- ... (inaudible) decide. People out of their own free will would-- would live a certain way, and those are the people you'd want to live with. So, you can't completely say that-- Abortion is, though a large part of it, wouldn't have to be made illegal for the Catholic people to be smart.

Now, a Catholic girl that gets an abortion is not bright, at all. For the main reason is you don't want to be outnumbered too much. Abortion, in a great way, is wiping out the Catholic Church.

DR. RESNICK: NOW, DO YOU OPPOSE ABORTION --

JOHN SALVI: Catholics have a brad outlook. They'll say, "Oh, if we're not financially ready, we won't get married." That's not what you say.

DR. RESNICK: DO YOU OPPOSE ABORTION FOR CATHOLICS OR FOR ... (inaudible)?

JOHN SALVI: What you do is you get married.

DR. RESNICK: HOLD ON.

JOHN SALVI: Hold on. And you be strong. The Catholic people are weak, very weak.

DR. RESNICK: LISTEN TO MY QUESTION.

JOHN SALVI: You have to have a government, you have to have a structure in society. We can't be a bunch of monkeys.

DR. RESNICK: OKAY. DO YOU OPPOSE ABORTION ONLY FOR CATHOLIC INDIVIDUALS OR FOR ALL INDIVIDUALS?

JOHN SALVI: Do I oppose-- Could you please repeat that?

DR. RESNICK: DO YOU OPPOSE ABORTION ONLY FOR CATHOLICS OR FOR ALL INDIVIDUALS?

JOHN SALVI: I would advise all individuals not to. I don't think it's good; that's my opinion. I would strongly advise the Catholic people not to for many other reasons. Mainly to not be outnumbered. The Catholics used to have large families.

DR. RESNICK: IT'S A PRACTICAL REASON. THERE'D BE MORE POWER FOR CATHOLICS IF THEY HAD LARGER FAMILIES?

JOHN SALVI: Well, if you were going up against the Catholic Church on an issue, would you want to go up against an only child, or would you want to go up against five brothers?

DR. RESNICK: I SEE YOUR POINT.

JOHN SALVI: --who had a hundred cousins.

DR. RESNICK: NOW, YOU STARTED TO SAY, HERE'S THE RIGHT WAY TO DO IT, YOU SAID THE PLACARD CARRYING WASN'T DOING IT. HOW WOULD YOU DEAL WITH THE ISSUE OF ABORTION IF YOU WERE IN CHARGE? WHAT ARE YOUR PERSONAL--

JOHN SALVI: Excuse me?

DR. RESNICK: WHAT ARE YOUR PERSONAL BELIEFS ABOUT HOW THE ABORTION ISSUE SHOULD BE DEALT WITH?

JOHN SALVI: How should it be dealt with? I already went over that for the most part. You know, you have to have leadership in the church. We have to talk about it, sit down. You know, at the end of each mass, instead of just everyone just rushing out of the church, we need to see the church as a government. It's a fine mark for government; it just needs a little bit of muscle.

It needs some education, and it needs--

DR. RESNICK: WELL--

JOHN SALVI: ... (inaudible), please, that's rude. It needs a set rules, how do we live. If the Pope says "jump", you teach your children to jump. Don't say to your children, "Don't ever do this. You don't want to ever rock the boat, cause waves." That's how the Catholics raise their children. (whisper) Or we run from pain. Well, that's insane. Because pain's going to run after you.

DR. RESNICK: OKAY, NOW YOU'RE SPEAKING GENERALLY.

JOHN SALVI: We need to educate the children; we need to educate the congregations. The congregations need to start thinking a little, which they haven't ever.

DR. RESNICK: NOW, THAT MIGHT INFLUENCE CATHOLICS TO AVOID ABORTION. BUT, THAT WILL STILL LEAVE ABORTION CLINICS IN THIS COUNTRY OPEN TO THOSE WHO CHOOSE TO USE IT, RIGHT? DO YOU HAVE ANY SOLUTION TO THAT?

JOHN SALVI: Look, the Catholic Church needs to be sufficient in and of itself.

DR. RESNICK: NOW, THAT MIGHT INFLUENCE CATHOLICS TO AVOID ABORTION. BUT, THAT WILL STILL LEAVE ABORTION CLINICS IN THIS COUNTRY OPEN T THOSE WHO CHOOSE TO USE IT, RIGHT? IS THERE A WAY-- DO YOU HAVE ANY SOLUTION TO THAT?

JOHN SALVI: Look, the Catholic Church needs to be sufficient in and of itself. We can't even, uh-- We have trouble even going up and farming because of taxation. Not to say that there aren't programs that compensate farmers. There are. But, it's not always easy to get those ... (inaudible)

DR. RESNICK: DO YOU FEEL THAT ABORTION CLINICS--

JOHN SALVI: Being paid not to grow food.

DR. RESNICK: EXCUSE ME. DO YOU FEEL THAT ABORTION CLINICS IN THIS COUNTRY SHOULD BE SHUT DOWN?

JOHN SALVI: In my opinion?

DR. RESNICK: YES.

JOHN SALVI: Oh yes.

DR. RESNICK: AND HOW CAN THAT BE ACCOMPLISHED?

JOHN SALVI: But, you can't completely impose that on people. You could-- You literally could. But people, for the most part, should have a personal opinion.

DR. RESNICK: DO YOU BELIEVE IN FREE CHOICE IN THAT RESPECT?

JOHN SALVI: Well, yeah, that's ... (inaudible) I can't say-- I'm a prolifer, I stand with the Pope completely. I can't say to a young lady, "You're going to take care of this child; bring this child into the world. You're not going to be yellow and get an abortion; you're going to be blue and ... (inaudible) at the world."

I can't completely say to you, "Raise this child." Am I against it? Yes. Why? Because I knew people when I was growing up that were adopted. And if abortion had been legal back then, I wouldn't have known them, most probably. That's why. And I feel that their presence in the world betters this earth. Most of the Catholics are poor; most people that get abortions are poor.

DR. RESNICK: OKAY, SO I UNDERSTAND YOUR THINKING, PHILOSOPHICALLY ON THIS MATTER. WHAT SPECIFIC STEPS TO CLOSING DOWN ABORTION CLINICS DO YOU FEEL NEED TO BE TAKEN, OR WHAT ARE PROPER?

JOHN SALVI: Let's get off that subject a little bit. And please don't keep up on it. This is an interview. I'd like to state something.

DR. RESNICK: OKAY, WE'LL GIVE YOU A CHANCE TO SAY WHATEVER YOU WANT AND THEN I'LL COME BACK--

JOHN SALVI: In the Church, each and every member of the church needs to submit a file to their priest. What do they do? "My name is John Salvi or James Smith." "What do you do for a living? How much do you make? Where did you go to college? What do you do? What do you like to do? What do you like? Are you tough? Are you tough?" If someone was going to hurt a priest of a ... (inaudible), a bishop, are you going to protect them, or are you just going to sit there and say, "Well, there's nothing we can simply do."

DR. RESNICK: SO, YOU BELIEVE IN BEING--

JOHN SALVI: You want to know what you're dealing with. (interruption)

JOHN SALVI: You want to know what you're dealing with. Please don't interrupt. That's stupid. You want to know what you're dealing with. Every aspect of this individual's life. People say, "Well, that's not good." That's stupid. This is your priest. You're not going to tell him if you're ... (inaudible) are you tough? Don't lie about it, don't say yeah, well I'll back you guys up but I'm afraid to get hurt. You know. Tell them if you're yellow.

DR. RESNICK: ARE YOU TOUGH?

JOHN SALVI: That would have nothing to do-- Look--

DR. RESNICK: ARE YOU PREPARED--

JOHN SALVI: You're not my priest.

DR. RESNICK: THAT'S TRUE.

JOHN SALVI: I don't even think you're a member of my church. I'd invite you to be. I'd want you to join. You're smart, educated. You probably know more about it than I do.

DR. RESNICK: I'M NOT GETTING TOO MUCH WORD IN EDGEWISE.

JOHN SALVI: Okay, it's good that way.

DR. RESNICK: (laughter)

JOHN SALVI: You wanted to know about me. This isn't an interview about you.

DR. RESNICK: THAT'S TRUE.

JOHN SALVI: Now you should let me speak. You want to know every different facet of the-- each and every individual in the congregation. You also want to know exactly who they're related to. And are these individuals-- you want to get files on those individuals-- Are these individuals-- Please.

DR. RESNICK: MR. SALVI, I WANT TO CHANGE THE SUBJECT.

JOHN SALVI: Are these individuals-- Well, no, I don't want the subject to change. And if it does, I'll leave this interview. How's that?

DR. RESNICK: MR. SALVI, LET'S SEE IF WE CAN COMPROMISE.

JOHN SALVI: No, we won't compromise anything.

DR. RESNICK: THIS IS--

JOHN SALVI: Get the files on the relatives of the Catholics that you're speaking to, that were submitting their own files. You want to know everything about every possible individual that would help you.

DR. RESNICK: MR. SALVI, LET'S TALK ABOUT-- LET'S TALK ABOUT THIS INTERVIEW FOR A MINUTE HERE. LET'S JUST TALK ABOUT THIS. LET ME EXPLAIN. IF YOUR SOLE PURPOSE IS TO LIKE MAKE A STATEMENT FOR THE PUBLIC--

JOHN SALVI: Make a statement for--

DR. RESNICK: HOLD-- LISTEN TO ME. IF YOUR PURPOSE IS TO MAKE A STATEMENT FOR THE PUBLIC, THIS IS NOT THE RIGHT VEHICLE TO DO THAT. THE PURPOSE OF THIS INTERVIEW IS WORKING WITH YOUR ATTORNEYS TO TRY AND BRING OUT INFORMATION WHICH WILL BE RELEVANT TO YOUR TRIAL. SO, PLEASE GO ON WITH ME, AND LET ME ACCOMPLISH THAT. THAT'S WHY I'M HERE. I HAVE A VERY LIMITED AMOUNT OF TIME. AND YOUR HOLDING FORTH THIS DISCOURSE, YOU COULD DO IT ANY TIME.

JOHN SALVI: Look, I'm the one that hasn't eaten, and there' been food poisoning, and is not feeling one. You're the one that probably ate red lobster last night.

DR. RESNICK: NO.

JOHN SALVI: So, let's please spare the sympathy. ... (inaudible)

DR. RESNICK: LET ME ASK YOU SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT TRIAL PROCEDURE NOW. I'M THROUGH WITH THE OTHER AREA FOR NOW. FIRST OF ALL, DO YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'VE BEEN CHARGED WITH?

JOHN SALVI: Okay.

DR. RESNICK: THIS IS A TOTALLY DIFFERENT AREA. DO YOU KNOW WHAT CRIMES YOU'VE BEEN CHARGED WITH?

JOHN SALVI: Yes, I've been informed.

DR. RESNICK: WHAT ARE THE CHARGES?

JOHN SALVI: I have them written down somewhere. I don't wish to get into that. And I'm stating that right now. So, please don't keep up on it.

DR. RESNICK: WE NEED TO, MR. SALVI.

JOHN SALVI: No, we don't need to do anything.

DR. RESNICK: WE DO.

JOHN SALVI: No.

DR. RESNICK: JUST GO THROUGH THIS PERIOD OF TRIAL PROCEDURE WITH ME AND THEN WE'LL--

JOHN SALVI: Do you think I'm simple?

DR. RESNICK: NO. NO, I THINK THAT YOU'RE BRIGHT. AND I THINK YOU'RE DETERMINED. BUT, THE QUESTION HERE IS WORKING WITH YOUR ATTORNEYS TO LOOK AT SOME ISSUES WHICH YOU HAVE NOT BEEN SO WILLING TO DISCUSS. SO, MOVE WITH ME INTO THIS AREA. JUST TELL ME WHAT ARE THE THINGS YOU'VE BEEN CHARGED WITH. THAT'S NOT A TOUGH QUESTION. LET'S JUST GO THROUGH THIS.

JOHN SALVI: Then I'm going to decline this interview within the next few minutes if you keep up on questions on I don't wish to ask. That's rude. I mean if I'm--

DR. RESNICK: LET ME TRY ANOTHER AREA. DO YOU BELIEVE YOU'LL BE ABLE TO GET A FAIR TRIAL?

JOHN SALVI: Do I think I'll get a fair trial? Yes, I'm sure I would.

DR. RESNICK: DO YOU TRUST YOUR DEFENSE ATTORNEYS?

JOHN SALVI: Yes. I have a lot of faith in Mrs. Bassel and Mr. Carney.

DR. RESNICK: WHAT IS THE PROSECUTOR'S JOB IN THE COURT ROOM? WHAT IS HE GOING TO TRY AND DO WHEN YOU'RE ON TRIAL?

JOHN SALVI: What is he going to .. (inaudible) on trial? Well, you are technically part of this defense.

DR. RESNICK: YES, THAT'S CORRECT. AND A CONSULTANT TO YOUR DEFENSE ATTORNEYS.

JOHN SALVI: Right.

DR. RESNICK: BUT, I'M ASKING WHAT WILL THE ROLE OF THE PROSECUTOR BE IN YOUR TRIAL?

JOHN SALVI: What would the role of the prosecutor be in this trial? Of the prosecutor?

DR. RESNICK: YEAH, WHAT'S HE GOING TO TRY AND ACCOMPLISH AT THE TRIAL?

JOHN SALVI: A conviction.

DR. RESNICK: OKAY, GOOD. AND WHAT ARE THE POSSIBLE PENALTIES THAT YOU'RE FACING?

A: That's not good. You keep up on different angles on the same question. I told you, I didn't want to get into it. It's not something I feel like thinking about right now.

Q: LET ME UNDERSTAND, MR. SALVI, YOUR REASONS FOR NOT WANTING TO THINK ABOUT THOSE THINGS.

A: No, You're not getting on to the same question. The reasons, not good. Same question. I don't wish to-- I told you once. Are you going to keep at every little angle, as if ... I'm not going to know? And I want you to think about something here. You can attack me from several different angles. But I mean like, I'm no going to know.

Q: WELL, IT'S DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF IT. IT'S DIFFERENT ASPECTS OF THE TRIAL.

A: Yeah. Right. If I say something, okay, in this interview, I mean it. Not to say that you couldn't get me to -- how would you say this? I'm telling you what I want to tell you.

Q: EXACTLY. EXACTLY. AND I WANT TO HEAR SOME OF THAT.

A: I'm telling you about how I feel.

Q: RIGHT. BUT YOU SEE--

A: Now, I don't like it when we turn this into some sort of interrogation. That's not what this is supposed to be. If you're on my side, you're working for me.

Q: WELL, I AM ON YOUR SIDE.

A: Yes. You're part of the defense.

Q: I AM WORKING FOR YOUR ATTORNEYS, AND--

A: Working for my attorneys. You're working for me.

Q: IN A SENSE, THAT'S TRUE.

A: No. You're working for me. If you're a part of the defense, you're working for me.

Q: IN A SENSE, THAT'S TRUE.

A: No. You're working for me.

Q: YES.

A: You're hired on by the state, to serve me.

Q: YES. ULTIMATELY, THAT'S TRUE.

A: As my defense.

Q: THAT'S TRUE.

A: Nothing else should interfere. Nothing else should be any part of it.

Q: RIGHT. BUT I--

A: Right?

Q: RIGHT, BUT SEE, YOU--

A: What is this cloud that there's like two different groups of defense?

Q: NO, THERE'S NOT TWO DIFFERENT GROUPS.

A: Exactly.

Q: NO. I AGREE WITH YOU ON THAT. BUT I'M TRYING TO DO WHAT YOUR ATTORNEYS WOULD LIKE, WHICH IS TO BRING OUT CERTAIN INFORMATION WHICH MAY BE HELPFUL IN THE TRIAL AND THEIR PLANNING OF LEGAL STRATEGY. AND THAT'S WHY I'M GOING OVER THESE QUESTIONS. AND YOU TRUST YOUR ATTORNEYS. THEY--

A: Do I trust-- I already told you that. Are you going to ask me that again?

Q: NO, NO. IT WASN'T A QUESTION. IT WAS A BEGINNING OF A SENTENCE. I SAID, YOU TRUST YOUR ATTORNEYS. THEY BROUGHT ME HERE. SO IN THAT SENSE, I'D APPRECIATE YOUR COOPERATION, WORKING WITH THEM. IF YOU THOUGHT YOUR ATTORNEYS DIDN'T HAVE YOUR BEST INTERESTS AT HEART OR WERE WORKING AGAINST YOU, THEN I CAN SEE WHY YOU WOULD BE MORE RELUCTANT TO ANSWER MY QUESTIONS. BUT IN THAT SENSE --

A: You know, it's the way you're going about this. It's as though you're not on my side, and I don't like it.

Q: REALLY? BECAUSE I CONSIDER MYSELF ON YOUR SIDE.

A: It's the way you're attacking question. If you were working for me and you were employed by me, and I said-- mentioned that, you know, our of politeness, I don't wish you to ask me a certain question, and you kept up on it, that wouldn't be good for me. It would aggravate me. It's not something I would want-- do to you.

Q: WELL, OKAY. I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING. BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, SOMETIMES YOU'LL HAVE AN ATTORNEY IN A GIVEN CASE, WHO WILL ASK YOU TOUGH QUESTIONS, WHICH MIGHT BE PAINFUL OR AWKWARD OR HUMILIATING. BUT THE ATTORNEY SAYS, "LOOK, I NEED TO KNOW THIS INFORMATION TO REPRESENT YOU IN COURT." AND SO IF YOU LET THE DEFENDANT CALL EVERY SHOT, IT TIES THE ATTORNEY'S HANDS IN TRYING TO DO AN EFFECTIVE JOB. WHAT I'M TRYING TO DO HERE IS, EVEN THOUGH YOU MAY NOT SEE THE RELEVANCE OF SOME OF THESE QUESTIONS --

A: There's one problem in the Catholic church that has always puzzled me. I don't feel that we're dealing with a group of people who are entirely all there. I mean, rationally, anyone who accepts the thought of eternal punishment has to be someone who's decently in balance(?). I don't believe that Jesus did mention eternal punishment. I think, somewhere along the lines, the scriptures got a little bit altered. I think he mentioned along the lines of: everyone will pay a certain price, according to what they've done or haven't done. Sometimes it's worse if you haven't done something. That's what the Catholic people don't understand. Everything in the Catholic-- it's like talking to a monkey. You say that you did something. "Slap. Now apologize. Go to confession." What about saying, "slap, slap," because you didn't do something you should have? If you don't help out the priest, then slap, slap. There's a reason. You don't understand how awful that is, how evil it is to take power away from priests. That's an apostle. Not to say that all of them are completely balanced or are really good apostles. That's an apostle. You don't take power away from him.

Q: I WANT TO GO INTO ANOTHER --

A: If you do, you're foolish. You shouldn't go to church. That way, everyone in the church should know ... (inaudible).

Q: OKAY, MR. SALVI. I WANT TO MOVE ON TO AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT AREA NOW. I'M NOT GOING TO ASK YOU QUESTIONS ABOUT THE TRIAL.

A: Why limit the power of your leadership?

Q: SO PLEASE, GIVE THESE QUESTIONS A FAIR HEARING. THERE ARE A SERIES OF QUESTIONS WHICH ARE CALLED MENTAL STATUS EXAMINATION. AND IT'S A WAY THAT A PSYCHIATRIST JUST LOOKS AT THE CURRENT FUNCTIONING OF AN INDIVIDUAL: HOW IS THEIR MEMORY? HOW IS THEIR THINKING? SO PLEASE GO ALONG WITH ME ON THIS. SOME OF THESE QUESTIONS WILL SOUND VERY EASY. SOME WILL SOUND HARD. COULD YOU JUST BEGIN BY TELLING ME TODAY'S DATE?

A: 1-15-95.

Q: OKAY. AND PHYSICALLY, WHERE ARE YOU RIGHT NOW?

A: Norfolk county correctional institution, 200 Needham Street, Dedham, Massachusetts 02149.

Q: OKAY. YOU KNOW MORE THAN I DO, HERE. TELL ME WHO THE CURRENT PRESIDENT OF THE COUNTRY IS.

A: Current President? Bill Clinton.

Q: AND GO BACKWARD, NAMING THE LAST FEW.

A: Vice-President, Al Gore.

Q: WHO CAME BEFORE CLINTON? WHICH PRESIDENT? (pause) WHICH PRESIDENT PRECEDED CLINTON? (pause) THIS IS JUST A QUESTIONING ABOUT SOME GENERAL INFORMATION. (pause) DO YOU KNOW THAT? OR IS THAT AN AREA YOU DON'T WANT TO ANSWER?

A: (silence)

Q: JUST TELL ME, AND WE'LL MOVE ON TO ANOTHER QUESTION. JUST LET ME KNOW WHERE YOU ARE ON THIS.

A: (silence)

Q: OKAY. LET ME MOVE ON. MR. SALVI, CAN YOU SUBTRACT 7 FROM 100?

A: 93

Q: AND KEEP TAKING AWAY 7.

A: I did this before, except it was with 3's. Couldn't do it.

Q: REALLY?

A: Yeah.

Q: SEVEN FROM 93. YOU CAN'T?

A: Can't do it.

Q: CAN'T DO IT.

A: No. Not smart enough.

Q: MATH IS NOT YOUR STRONG --

A: No.

Q: OKAY. CAN YOU SPELL THE WORD "WORLD"?

A: W-O-R-L-D.

Q: GOOD. CAN YOU SPELL THAT BACKWARDS?

A: That would be-- that ... . D-- world -- D-L-R-O-W. D-R- --

Q: EXCELLENT. ALL RIGHT.

A: World. Yeah.

Q: IF YOU WERE THE FIRST PERSON TO DISCOVER A SMALL FIRE IN A MOVIE THEATER, WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

A: What does this have to do with my defense?

Q: OKAY. THIS IS A GROUP OF QUESTIONS CALLED MENTAL STATUS EXAMINATION --

A: Mental Status Examination.

Q: -- WHICH JUST DEALS WITH WHETHER OF NOT YOU-- SHOWS WHETHER OR NOT YOU HAVE ANY KIND OF PSYCHIATRIC TROUBLE WHICH MIGHT INTERFERE --

A: I have never had any form of psychiatric trouble, ever. Never been in trouble with the law.

Q: OKAY. BUT JUST --

A: I don't even have a driving record.

Q: BUT JUST-- THESE ARE JUST A FEW MORE QUESTIONS. IT JUST GETS ON THE RECORD THAT YOU'RE ABLE TO HANDLE THESE INTELLECTUAL THINGS. JUST GO ALONG WITH ME. IT'S NOT A BIG DEAL.

A: Okay. I'll go along ... .

Q: OKAY. SO IF YOU WERE THE FIRST PERSON --

A: .. is good. How's that? I will answer the questions I feel-- that I feel like answering, or that I know a question, or that I know the answer to.

Q: ALL RIGHT. AND IF YOU WANT TO DECLINE --

A: Or that I think I know the answer to.

Q: OKAY. IF YOU WERE THE FIRST PERSON IN A MOVIE THEATER TO DISCOVER A SMALL FIRE, WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

A: What would you do?

Q: WHAT WOULD I DO?

A: Yeah.

Q: WELL, THIS IS A TEST OF YOU. SO THAT'S WHY I'M ASKING YOU.

A: Well, what would you do, so I can give a proper answer of what I would do.

Q: WELL, WHAT I WOULD DO MIGHT BE A CLUE. ALL RIGHT. I'LL TELL YOU WHAT I WOULD DO. AND THEN WE'LL GO ON TO A DIFFERENT ONE TO ASK YOU. WHAT I WOULD DO IS NOTIFY THE MANAGER, TURN ON THE LIGHTS, AND HAVE AN ORDERLY EVACUATION. WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

A: You'd notify the manager, notify the front desk, notify the manager. Notify the usher.

Q: RIGHT.

A: Shouldn't even have to.

Q: ALL RIGHT. WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

A: Notify the usher.

Q: OKAY, GOOD.

A: You point out exits.

Q: OKAY. IF YOU WERE TO FIND --

A: Open the exits.

Q: OKAY. I'M GOING ON TO THE NEXT QUESTION. YOUR ANSWER IS FINE, TO THAT. IF YOU WERE TO DISCOVER A STAMPED, ADDRESSED ENVELOPE ON THE SIDEWALK, WHAT WOULD YOU DO WITH IT?
A: Mail it.

Q: GOOD.

A: What would you do with it?

Q: MAIL IT.

A: Okay.

Q: I'M GOING TO MENTION SOME PROVERBS NOW. THE PROVERB, "DON'T CRY OVER SPILLED MILK," WHAT DOES THAT EXPRESSION MEAN?

A: Don't cry over spilled milk, so it'll stink three days later.

Q: ANY OTHER MEANING?

A: Well, probably because it's going to smell. You want to pick up the spilled milk instead of crying over it. If you cry over it, what good would it do?

Q: ALL RIGHT. LET ME JUST FIVE YOU THE KIND OF ANSWER I'M LOOKING FOR. ANOTHER WAY TO TAKE THAT PROVERB --

A: You know, I don't completely understand everything you're saying. So you have to bear with me a little bit.

Q: OKAY. YOU'RE DOING FINE. ANOTHER ANSWER TO THAT WOULD BE, "DON'T DWELL ON THINGS YOU CAN'T CHANGE."

A: Don't dwell on things you can't change. Who said there's anything you can't change?

Q: ALL RIGHT. NOW, HOW ABOUT THIS ONE? "DON'T COUNT YOUR CHICKENS TILL THEY'RE HATCHED."

A: Don't count your chickens till they're hatched, especially if they're Catholic, because they probably won't.

Q: WHAT DOES THAT EXPRESSION MEAN?

A: It means, don't count on a Catholic for anything.

Q: OKAY. HOW ABOUT THIS ONE?

A: Especially if you're a priest and you're asking help from the congregation, because chances are, you probably won't get it.

Q: ALL RIGHT. HOW ABOUT THIS ONE: "PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN GLASS HOUSES SHOULD NOT THROW STONES."

A: Unless they're living in a bullet-proof house.

Q: IS THERE ANY MORE --

A: What kind of glass?

Q: IS THERE ANY MORE GENERAL MEANING YOU CAN GIVE TO THAT?

A: I don't know. I don't even understand why you're asking me that question. But people who-- shouldn't throw glass to them (?). I don't understand that.

Q: OKAY. HOW ABOUT --

A: Why?

Q: "WHAT GOES AROUND, COMES AROUND."

A: What goes around, comes around. Always. Most often.

Q: ALL RIGHT. LET ME GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT I MEAN. "PEOPLE WHO LIVE IN GLASS HOUSES SHOULDN'T THROW STONES." ONE WAY OF EXPRESSING THAT MEANING WOULD BE TO SAY, "JUDGE NOT THAT YOU NOT BE JUDGED."

A: What's the correlation? I don't completely understand.

Q: YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT?

A: No.

Q: THE IDEA IS, IT'S SYMBOLICALLY CRITICIZING OTHERS WHEN ONE THEMSELVES IS VULNERABLE TO THE SAME CRITICISM.

A: There's one thing I have to state here. I don't completely put the entire blame of a persecution on one group, although a persecution is on a group of people. However, the Catholics persecute themselves in a way they don't even realize. It's called being stupid. You don't have to be smart. You just have to ... , and you have to have a government. What did the Catholic people think government was?

Q: ALL RIGHT. BUT LET ME --

A: All right.

Q: MR. SALVI, ... (inaudible).

A: Do they assume that congress is the extent of government? That the house of legislature is the extent of government? That's the only government?

Q: OKAY, MR. SALVI. LET ME TRY AND FINISH UP. I JUST HAVE --

A: That's just the form of government that ... (inaudible).

Q: -- A COUPLE OF MORE QUESTIONS.

A: The Catholic people aren't seeing the government that's your next door neighbor. We need to be our own government. Why big brother Kane (?) holds our hand, and Kane says, "You can't fish without a permit from me." Well, what if I said-- what if the Catholic church said, "well, Mr. Resnick, you can't go clamming without a permit"? Mr. Resnick ought to tell the Catholic church where they can put their permit, politely.

Q: OKAY. LET ME COME BACK TO A COUPLE OF OTHER QUESTIONS HERE.

A: Now, I don't understand why the Catholics put up with that. What kind of a man takes his son to get a permit from some individual that's persecuting him by taking part, a small part in a persecution? That's stupid, because then you're blinding your son into believing that that's okay. That's what happens over time.

Q: OKAY. MR. SALVI, LET ME FINISH UP A COUPLE OF OTHER QUESTIONS I WANTED TO GET TO. HAVE YOU EVER EXPERIENCED ANY HALLUCINATIONS?

A: No.

Q: OR HEARD VOICES TALKING TO YOU, OTHER PEOPLE --

A: Never.

Q: OR SEEN VISIONS OTHER PEOPLE DIDN'T SEE?

A: No. Have you ever?

Q: NO. HAVE YOU FELT PERSONALLY PERSECUTED, SEPARATE FROM THE CATHOLIC PERSECUTION YOU'RE ALREADY DESCRIBED TO ME, WHERE YOU YOURSELF HAVE BEEN PERSONALLY PERSECUTED?

A: Would you repeat that?

Q: YOU'VE ALREADY DESCRIBED TO ME THE PERSECUTION OF CATHOLICS IN GENERAL. AND I'M ASKING YOU, HAVE YOU INDIVIDUALLY FELT PERSONALLY PERSECUTED? IN OTHER WORDS, WHERE YOU WERE LAID OFF, OR SOMETHING HAPPENED TO YOU, EITHER BECAUSE YOU WERE A CATHOLIC OR FOR ANY REASON, THAT YOU WERE PERSECUTED?

A: I Decline that answer and question. I don't feel like answering that. Are you going to keep up on that question?

Q: NO. I'LL RESPECT YOUR DECLINING TO ANSWER THAT. ULTIMATELY, I'D HOPE YOU'D ANSWER IT. BUT I'LL RESPECT THAT. NOW, DO YOU HAVE ANY SPECIAL POWERS THAT ORDINARY MORTALS DON'T HAVE?

A: Special Powers. Do you have any special powers that ordinary mortals don't have?

Q: NO.

A: I don't believe I have. Let me ask you question. Do you believe in faith healing?

Q: IN A SENSE, THAT THERE'S A GREAT POWER OF, IF SOMEONE PSYCHOLOGICALLY BELIEVES SOMEONE CAN HEAL THEM, CAN GO A LONG WAY TOWARD HEALING THEM. IN THAT SENSE, I DO.

A: Psychological Power. You don't actually believe in Power. What force controls atoms, Mr. Resnick?

Q: WELL, I SEE THAT YOU'D BE GLAD TO REVERSE ROLES HERE AND CONDUCT THE INTERVIEW. BUT I DON'T THINK THAT'S THE MOST PRODUCTIVE WAY I CAN SPEND MY TIME HERE.

A: Why? I asked you a question. That's rude. Right? I'm willing to answer most of the questions you asked me. Could you answer one I'm asking you?

Q: I'LL ANSWER ONE. OKAY.

A: Okay. Good. What power controls atoms. What force causes them to spin?

Q: I DON'T EVEN KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT. THERE'S SOMETHING CALLED BROWNIAN MOTION, IS MY UNDERSTANDING. BUT I DON'T KNOW THE PHYSICS OF IT ENOUGH TO ANSWER BETTER THAN THAT.

A: Okay. So you don't believe in the power of a force, maybe a spirit, something that we don't know about, to heal?

Q: OH, I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER.

A: I'd like to know a little bit more about you. What religion do you belong to?

Q: WELL, I'D RATHER NOT GET INTO THAT. MY JOB HERE IS NOT --

A: So if I was questioning you, you wouldn't tell me very much.

Q: WELL --

A: Because I'm questioning you right now, and you're not telling me anything about your background.

Q: LOOK. IF YOU AND I WERE SITTING IN A BAR AND DEVELOPING A FRIENDSHIP, I THINK THERE'D BE AN EQUAL OBLIGATION TO BE SHARING. BUT IN THIS PARTICULAR ROLE, WHERE I'M THE DOCTOR WORKING WITH YOU DEFENSE ATTORNEYS AND I'M HERE TO DO A JOB, THEN FOR ME TO BE ANSWERING YOUR QUESTIONS DOESN'T SEEM TO BE THE APPROPRIATE USE OF OUR TIME. IT'S A DIFFERENT ROLE. DO YOU BELIEVE THAT YOU HAVE THE POWER TO INFLUENCE OTHER PEOPLE'S MINDS, TO INFLUENCE THEIR THOUGHTS?

A: Do I have power to influence other people's minds? I decline that answer. The power. Do you mean, as in a power like, I go like this and that affects you somehow, chemically?

Q: THAT WOULD BE ONE WAY.

A: What about saying something that stimulates someone chemically? Everyone has the power to influence --

Q: EVERYONE HAS THE POWER OF PERSUASION. SURE. OKAY.

A: I mean, depends -- persuasion. When you bring up a suggestion, does that influence this individual? Everybody has that.

Q: OKAY. I AGREE WITH YOU.

A: Do I say, do I have a little bit of magical power? No. I don't believe so.

Q: ALL RIGHT.

A: Could God give ... (inaudible)? Yes. I do believe in healing. I know an individual personally that was.

Q: ALL RIGHT. DO YOU BELIEVE OTHER PEOPLE CAN READ YOUR THOUGHTS?

A: Do I believe-- how would you know?

Q: WELL, SOME PEOPLE BELIEVE LIKE THEIR --

A: No. If you could read my thoughts, would you tell me?

Q: I WOULD.

A: Why?

Q: WHY NOT? I'M TRYING TO BE OPEN AND HONEST WITH YOU.

A: Why would you tell me?

Q: WHY NOT? SO YOUR HONEST ANSWER IS, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW. DO YOU THINK THAT ANYONE HAS TAKEN THOUGHTS OUT OF YOUR MIND, OR INSERTED THOUGHTS IN YOUR MIND, AGAINST YOUR WILL?

A: Against my will? All the time.

Q: IN WHAT WAY?

A: Well, when you suggest someone to do-- to recruit someone to fight in a war, what is that?

Q: VOLUNTARILY RECRUIT?

A: Draft. Suggestion. Billboard that shows a soldier on it.

Q: YES, THAT'S --

A: I don't think the Catholic people completely understand the roles of power. They're under this impression that government is government and that's the way it is, as though a handful of people in Congress could force everyone to pay taxes. I mean, you're not dealing with a group of people, for the most part, who think about their surroundings that much. And if they do, they obviously don't express their opinion, or they don't have a good opinion of it.

Q: OKAY. DO YOU HAVE A MISSION IN LIFE?

A: Could 3,000 individuals force an entire country to pay taxes? No.

Q: NOT WITHOUT AN ARMY.

A: No. Well, if you had all sheep, you could. I mean come on now. Not everyone pays taxes.

Q: I'VE GOT ANOTHER QUESTION FOR YOU.

A: Everybody pays taxes, but a lot of people get money.

Q: ALL RIGHT. DO YOU HAVE A MISSION IN LIFE?

A: Do I have a mission in life? Everyone should have a mission in life. Let me explain a little bit of where I'm coming from.

Q: BUT DO YOU.

A: Let's say that Mary and Joseph and Jesus were living in a house, and they were about to lose their home. Obviously, we know this wouldn't happen with them. Well, that's kind of how I look at my-- at the Catholic people, as about to lose their homes. A lot of them are ... (inaudible). A lot of them are suffering.

Q: SO THAT'S KIND OF AN EXTREME --

A: I'm trying to give you an idea --

Q: WOULD YOU SAY THAT CATHOLICS ARE IN AN EXTREMELY VULNERABLE --

A: Dangerous, vulnerable situation.

Q: YOU WOULD. AND DOES THAT SOMETIMES CALL FOR EXTREME MEASURES TO GET THEM OUT OF DANGER?

A: It's called (?) just making yourself strong. You don't have to hurt anyone to do that. You only defend yourselves. You defend a welfare system in your church. Anyone who tries to stop it, then they should be dealing with about 35 million individuals that are well armed, and say, "We don't think so." Why? "Because we're not monkeys".

Q: "WELL ARMED" MEANS WITH FIREARMS?

A: You can take a monkey and put a piece of cheese on the table, and tell the monkey that it has to pray and it will get it. And the monkey will pray. Okay. If somebody's not a monkey, you put a piece of cheese on the table. They'll figure out a way. How'd you get the cheese? How'd you make the cheese? How'd you-- you know. You know. How did you distribute the cheese? How did-- that's the part of it the Catholic people don't seem to see. They see the cheese on the table. That's what they want. That's how the Catholic people view work. They go and they apply for a job. "Oh, geez, did you get the job?" "I don't know, ... (inaudible)" They don't see a lot of things. How would you run that place, yourself? How would you make sure you got the job?

Q: MR. SALVI, LET ME-- ...(inaudible) GIVE YOU A CHANCE TO TALK ABOUT WHAT'S IMPORTANT TO YOU. BUT TRY AND FOCUS ON MY QUESTION. DO YOU HAVE A MISSION IN LIFE?

A: Do I have a mission in life? What is my mission in life? I suppose, to make the test a little bit easier.

Q: THE TEST?

A: Yeah, that Jesus is putting forth.

Q: WHAT IS THE TEST?

A: Who takes part in persecuting? It's strange. Let me explain something to you. Why should a select group of people receive welfare?

Q: LET ME JUST SHIFT --

A: This is a --

Q: I WANT TO SHIFT BACK TO YOUR MISSION.

A: Why should a select group of people-- why should you receive social security benefits at age-- what? Sixty-five? Is that it?

Q: MM HM.

A: Why not receive that when you turn 18? Why shouldn't every United States citizen, not just the Catholic people, every United States citizen receive welfare benefits? And in fact, it should be more than that. We also have to keep an eye on taxation.

Q: ARE YOU ANSWERING MY QUESTION --

A: Please.

Q: ARE YOU ANSWERING MY QUESTION, "WHAT IS YOUR MISSION," NOW? ARE YOU DESCRIBING SOME GOALS FOR THE COUNTRY, MAYBE? BUT I'M ASKING YOU, WHAT IS YOUR MISSION?

A: My mission.

Q: YES. YOUR PERSONAL MISSION.

A: My person mission.

Q: IF YOU HAVE ONE.

A: What do you think we're talking about here? That's-- my personal mission. Okay. But that's not my personal mission. This sheet of paper is a personal mission, which should be every Catholic's personal mission.

Q: OKAY, BUT I'M JUST TALKING ABOUT YOUR PERSONAL MISSION.

A: You need a program. You don't --

Q: YOU WANT TO GENERALIZE IT TO WHAT CATHOLICS NEED TO DO. AND I'M SIMPLY ASKING YOU, WHAT IS YOUR PERSONAL --

A: You don't battle your enemies by doing something ridiculous. You battle your enemies by ignoring them and being your own leadership. Don't look to people that hate you, to help you. How simple do you have to be, to do that? If you hated me and I knew there was no way on earth you'd help me, why would I look to you for help? Why wouldn't I look to individuals who belong to my church, or like me, or belong to my church, to figure out a way to exist? What else would you think about? This is what the Catholic people are ridiculous on. They say, "well, I don't want to hear it. I don't want to talk about it." That's what they always do. You mention something. "I don't want to hear about it." Let's help a priest out. "No, no. We don't want to hear about it. We don't want to hear about it. I don't want to lose my this or that, and we don't want to lose the position we have," and all this. That's ridiculous. That's ridiculous. What are you running for? What else would you think about, besides a welfare system, besides good jobs, making sure everyone has a certain wage.

Q: WELL, LET'S JUST PAUSE WHILE I CHANGE THE TAPE.

A: You don't have to be so smart.

Q: OKAY. I WANT TO COME BACK TO YOUR-- I UNDERSTAND SOME OF YOU PHILOSOPHIES, MR. SALVI. I THINK YOU'VE BEEN ARTICULATE IN LAYING THOSE OUT, AND WHAT THE CATHOLICS NEED TO DO TO HELP THEMSELVES, AND HOW THEY SHOULD NOT BE DEPENDENT ON GOVERNMENT, WHICH IS HOSTILE TO THEM.

A: No, no, no, no. The Catholic church needs to be the government for the Catholic people. Anyone who isn't Catholic is welcome to have anyone else for the government. No, I don't completely say that we should not pay taxes to the government of the United States in Washington, D.C., and everywhere. The delegates, so on and so forth. However, we don't need to be dependent on them to print the money, and for them to have their own welfare system, above and beyond the welfare system that exists for the general public, so to speak.

Q: NOW, DO YOU HAVE OTHER --

A: No. Please, let me finish.

Q: DO YOU HAVE OTHER ADVOCATES THAT GO ALONG WITH THE PHILOSOPHY YOU'RE ESPOUSING?

A: I'm sure I would.

Q: BUT CAN YOU NAME PEOPLE RIGHT NOW?

A: Oh, no.

Q: THERE'S NO ONE THAT YOU CAN SAY AGREES WITH YOU?

A: The Catholic Church--

Q: SHOULD --

A: Should --

Q: -- BUT THUS FAR, HASN'T SIGNED ON TO THIS --

A: You're not dealing-- the biggest problem here is, even though everything I say, and-- you know. It's like talking to a wall. Did you every try to talk to a group of Catholics about anything?

Q: YES.

A: Okay, you won't get very far. Let me give you a good example.

Q: THEY'VE BEEN REJECTING SOME OF THESE IDEAS OF YOURS?

A: Oh, no. If you had to build a house-- ... (inaudible). Let's say something burnt down, that was part of a church or something, so on and so forth. And you wanted to rebuild that. The first thing the Catholic people would do, would be to seek permission from the town to do it. That's a monkey. Why would Jesus even want to live with an individual like that? I still can't figure it out. Never could.

Q: OKAY --

A: Why do you want permission from the town? You have electricians, carpenters, in the Catholic church. You have individuals. They're taught a trade like a monkey's taught a trade. A Catholic is taught how to be a carpenter like you teach a monkey.

Q: OKAY. MR. SALVI, LET ME GO ON TO SOMETHING ELSE, HERE.

A: Okay. If you were dealing with a group of Masons, or if you were dealing with a group of other individuals (which I won't get into, and other groups' names), you wouldn't need to get permission from a town. It would be like getting permission from one of the Catholics. It would be like saying, well, I'm going to get permission from this priest at another parish, so we can build this. You know, permits and so on. What do you care? Rebuild it. Do it, in and of yourself. Why this permission deal? That's why we can never seem to achieve anything. Let me give you an example. You want to put a deck on your porch.

Q: PLEASE, MR. SALVI.

A: No. Please. The other way.

Q: MR. SALVI, MR. SALVI.

A: Wait a minute. What kind of a man, or a woman --

Q: MR. SALVI --

A: What kind of a monkey --

Q: LET ME LEAVE THIS HOUSE DECK, HERE.

A: What kind of --

Q: I'M TIRED OF THIS HOUSE DECK. LET ME MOVE ON TO ANOTHER AREA.

A: What kind of a monkey gets permission from the town to put a deck on their house?

Q: LET ME PLACE ANOTHER QUESTION TO YOU. TOTALLY DIFFERENT AREA.

A: And if they denied you, wouldn't put it up?

Q: OKAY. TOTALLY DIFFERENT AREA.

A: Unless it infringed on your neighbor. I mean, but most of the time, they deny you a permit even if it didn't infringe.

Q: OKAY. CAN YOU OPEN YOUR MIND TO A NEW AREA?

A: They always come up with an excuse. "Well, we have to make sure everything is so and so and so." Sounds like the urban compact. That was the worst thing that ever happened to the Catholic people.

Q: OKAY. OPEN YOUR MIND.

A: The urban compact.

Q: OPEN YOUR MIND.

A: Something as simple as that, was like nailing the Catholics to a cross.

Q: OKAY. TELL ME, A FEW MONTHS AGO, A MAN IN FLORIDA KILLED A DOCTOR WHO PERFORMED ABORTIONS. DO YOU RECALL? I DON'T REMEMBER HIS NAME.

A: No. What was that?

Q: DO YOU REMEMBER READING ABOUT IT? REMEMBER READING ABOUT IT? HE SHOT A PHYSICIAN TO DEATH, AND HE WAS CHARGED AND CONVICTED OF MURDER.

A: Ah.

Q: DO YOU RECALL READING ABOUT IT?

A: I've heard different things in the paper about different individuals doing stuff like that.

Q: OKAY. DO YOU SUPPORT THAT KIND OF CONDUCT, OR NOT?

A: Do I support it? That's a question that I-- I don't know. Does the Pope support it? If the Pope supported it, I support it.

Q: ALL RIGHT.

A: How does the Pope feel about it?

Q: I DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER TO THAT. HAS THE POPE MADE A PROCLAMATION ONE WAY OR THE OTHER?

A: Have you asked him? I don't know. He's definitely spoken out against it.

Q: SPOKEN OUT AGAINST ABORTION VIOLENCE? ANTI-ABORTION VIOLENCE?

A: No. He's definitely spoken out against abortion.

Q: RIGHT.

A: I don't think he's mentioned anything about abortion violence.

Q: I DON'T KNOW IF HE'S COMMENTED ON THOSE WHO BRING VIOLENCE TO ABORTION CLINICS, OR NOT. I DON'T KNOW IF THE POPE HAS COMMENTED OR NOT. DO YOU KNOW IF THE POPE HAS COMMENTED DIRECTLY ON THAT ISSUE?

A: I have no idea. I just told you, I don't know.

Q: OKAY. SO NEITHER OF US KNOW.

A: Are you going to ask me again?

Q: NO. OKAY. NOW I'M ASKING YOU, DO YOU SUPPORT THAT KIND OF CONDUCT OR NOT?

A: Do I support that kind of conduct? I told you. You'd have to find out how the Pope felt. If the Pope supported it--

Q: BUT NEITHER OF US KNOW HOW THE POPE FEELS. WHAT I'M ASKING YOU NOW, IN THE ABSENCE OF KNOWLEDGE --

A: Stop asking me then. I told you, if the Pope supports it, then I support what the Pope supports.

Q: NOW, WHAT IF THE POPE DOESN'T SUPPORT CATHOLIC CURRENCY? WOULD YOU STOP SUPPORTING IT?

A: I decline to answer that question.

Q: ALL RIGHT. SO YOU CAN AGREE WITH THE POPE SOMETIMES, AND YOU CAN DISAGREE SOMETIMES. RIGHT?

A: I didn't say that.

Q: WELL, IS THAT CORRECT OR NOT?

A: I didn't say that. I just told you, I wished not to answer that question. And you're supposed to be working for me.

Q: THAT'S TRUE.

A: Right. So why do you keep asking?

Q: IT ISN'T EASY, MR. SALVI.

A: I think it's funny.

Q: IT ISN'T EASY, WORKING FOR YOU, WHEN YOU DECLINE TO ANSWER SOME OF THESE QUESTIONS. OKAY. LET ME GET RIGHT TO A QUESTION WHICH IS CENTRAL. DID YOU COMMIT THE CRIMES YOU ARE CHARGED WITH?

A: What did I just tell you? I told you there are certain questions I don't wish to answer.

Q: RIGHT.

A: You work for me.

Q: RIGHT.

A: What's the problem? You just asked me the question again.

Q: OH, NO. THIS IS A VERY DIFFERENT QUESTION.

A: Oh, no.

Q: THE QUESTION I ASKED BEFORE IS, "DO YOU SUPPORT THE CONDUCT OF THE FLORIDA GUNMAN WHO SHOT AN ABORTION DOCTOR?" AND YOU SAID, "I DECLINE TO ANSWER." NOW I'M ASKING YOU A DIFFERENT QUESTION, " DID YOU COMMIT THE CRIMES YOU'RE CHARGED WITH?" THAT'S A DIFFERENT QUESTION.

A: We already talked about that question, earlier on this tape. You work for me. I told you, I don't wish to answer that question right now. And you continue to ask me that question. I don't see what the problem is.

Q: ACTUALLY, I HAVE NOT ASKED YOU THAT QUESTION BEFORE.

A: Well, don't keep asking it. Let's go on to something else.

Q: OKAY. YOU'RE STRONG THAT YOU DECLINE TO DISCUSS THAT? BECAUSE THAT'S THE --

A: What do you think I just said?

Q: YOU SAID YOU DECLINE TO DISCUSS IT. AND --

A: I just said, "What do you think I just said?"

Q: YES. AND I WAS ASKING YOU THE STRENGTH OF YOUR FEELINGS. AND IT LOOKS LIKE THEY'RE PRETTY STRONG. (pause) WOULD YOU BE WILLING TO DISCUSS THAT ISSUE WITH YOUR ATTORNEYS, PRIVATELY, OR NOT?

A: You are part of my attorneys' consultation (?).

Q: THAT'S TRUE.

A: You are a psychiatrist --

Q: THAT'S TRUE.

A: --That has been hired, paid for by the state provided to me, along with two attorneys.

Q: CORRECT.

A: Technically, you're in my defense.

Q: CORRECT.

A: If there is a question I do not wish to answer, or a statement which I do not wish to make about the question, you should not drill me on it. I have presented that up front. I have said that before. Now, technically, you're working for me, in my defense.

Q: LET ME EXPLAIN SOMETHING TO YOU, MR. SALVI. AND YOU MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE OF THIS, BUT I JUST WANT TO --

A: See, you're putting me on the spot when you keep answering a question like I'm some sort of monkey. It's just going to, you know-- you know, if there's a question I don't wish to answer --

Q: YOU'RE PRETTY GOOD AT PROTECTING YOURSELF. ... (inaudible) --

A: Who said that?

Q: I DID. IF YOU DON'T WANT TO ANSWER SOMETHING, YOU'RE GOOD AT PROTECTING YOURSELF AND SAYING YOU WON'T ANSWER IT.

A: Now, being that this is on tape, why would you want to present it in a way as to make me look bad?

Q: I DON'T THINK IT MAKES YOU LOOK BAD. THAT'S A COMPLIMENT. I'M SAYING, YOU'RE QUITE CAPABLE OF, WHEN YOU DON'T WANT TO ANSWER SOMETHING, MAKING YOURSELF CLEAR.

A: Now, you mentioned that these tapes would not be brought forth in trial.

Q: UNLESS YOUR DEFENSE ATTORNEYS WISH TO.

A: Unless the defense attorneys wish to.

Q: RIGHT. I WANT TO --

A: What about if I wish to?

Q: WELL, THAT'S BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR DEFENSE ATTORNEYS.

A: It's between me and my defense attorneys. Right.

Q: TO WORK OUT A STRATEGY.

A: So I have some sort of role in this?

Q: YES.

A: Okay. Good. I'm happy to know that.

Q: OKAY. NOW, I WANT TO EXPLAIN SOMETHING TO YOU. THERE'S A CONCEPT CALLED "COMPETENT TO STAND TRIAL". AND IF A PERSON IS NOT --

A: Competent --

Q: RIGHT, TO STAND TRIAL.

A: -- to stand --

Q: TRIAL.

A: -- trial.

Q: IF A PERSON IS FOUND NOT COMPETENT TO STAND TRIAL, THAT MEANS THAT THEIR TRIAL IS DEFERRED, AND ORDINARILY, THAT PERSON IS SENT TO A PSYCHIATRIC HOSPITAL UNTIL THEY'RE RESTORED TO COMPETENCY. NOW, FAILING TO COOPERATE WITH ONE'S ATTORNEY CAN BE A BASIS FOR BEING FOUND NOT COMPETENT TO STAND TRIAL. AND THERE ARE --

A: Failure to cooperate with one's attorney would mean that you're incompetent to stand trial.

Q: YES. LET ME EXPLAIN THAT A LITTLE MORE.

A: Let me explain something to you.

Q: YES.

A: That is absolutely false. I could bring forth my own defense.

Q: YOU MEAN LIKE, FIRE YOUR ATTORNEYS AND DO IT ON YOUR OWN?

A: An individual could do that. And if they did, that would not mean that they're incompetent, or that they're crazy.

Q: OKAY. WELL, LET ME EXPLAIN IT A LITTLE BIT MORE.

A: There was a case in Florida with an individual who didn't even have an attorney. He defended himself.

Q: THAT'S TRUE.

A: And he won the case.

Q: THAT'S TRUE. LET ME EXPLAIN THIS --

A: It usually isn't good to do that.

Q: IT'S USUALLY NOT SMART. RIGHT.

A: Yeah. You always want attorneys and advisors.

Q: RIGHT. LET ME EXPLAIN A LITTLE MORE ON THIS, MR. SALVI. THERE ARE TWO REASONS FOR NOT COOPERATING WITH ONE'S ATTORNEY. AND THERE MAY BE A HUNDRED REASONS, BUT THERE'S TWO REASONS I WANT TO MENTION. ONE IS SIMPLY PREFERRING NOT TO COOPERATE, IN WHICH CASE --

A: Preferring-- you work for me. Let's get that understanding.

Q: YEAH. JUST --

A: So preferring to cooperate-- you bring it forth-- see, it seems as though like you're slipping in some sort of way, as though you're on their side of things.

Q: NO. I WANT YOU TO HEAR ME OUT.

A: That you're ... .

Q: JUST LISTEN TO THIS. JUST LISTEN TO THIS. A PERSON CANNOT COOPERATE WITH HER ATTORNEY WILLFULLY, BECAUSE THEY SIMPLY CHOOSE NOT TO. OR, A PERSON CAN BE UNABLE TO COOPERATE, DUE TO SOME PSYCHIATRIC PROBLEM. IF IT'S DUE TO SOME PSYCHIATRIC PROBLEM, THEN A COURT IS LIKELY TO FIND A PERSON NOT COMPETENT TO STAND TRIAL. IF IT'S WILLFUL, IF THE PERSON JUST SAYS, "I DON'T WANT TO, FOR MY OWN PERSONAL REASONS," AND IT'S UNRELATED TO MENTAL ILLNESS, THEN THAT WOULD NOT BE AN INTERFERENCE WITH GOING FORWARD TO STAND TRIAL. SO WHEN YOU DON'T COOPERATE HERE, ONE OF THE THINGS I'M SORTING THROUGH IN MY MIND IS WHETHER OR NOT YOU HAVE A CHOICE OF COOPERATING, OR WHETHER YOU FEEL SOMETHING'S GOING ON WHICH MAKES IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOU TO COOPERATE.

A: No. If I didn't cooperate, what would you do? What procedure would you go through?

Q: WELL, FIRST OF ALL, ALL I WOULD DO IS LET YOUR ATTORNEYS KNOW WHAT I'VE OBSERVED. THEN --

A: Would you let the prosecution know?

Q: NO. I WORK FOR YOUR ATTORNEYS.

A: Right.

Q: THEN, YOUR ATTORNEYS WOULD HAVE TO MAKE A DECISION WHETHER TO MAKE A MOTION TO HAVE THE JUDGE FIND YOU NOT COMPETENT TO STAND TRIAL, WHICH WOULD DELAY YOUR TRIAL AND CAUSE YOU TO BE ADMITTED TO A PSYCHIATRIC HOSPITAL; OR TO GO FORWARD WITH TRIAL. ULTIMATELY, THAT WILL BE YOUR ATTORNEYS' DECISION, NOT MINE. I WILL GIVE THEM MY OPINION, BUT THEY WILL BE THE DECISION MAKER. SO ONE OF THE REASONS THAT YOU FIND YOURSELF PRESSED BY ME -- AND I APOLOGIZE FOR DOING THAT, BUT I'M HONESTLY TRYING TO DO A GOOD JOB FOR YOUR ATTORNEYS AND FOR YOU -- IS BECAUSE I'M TRYING TO SORT OUT WHETHER THIS IS WILLFUL NON-COOPERATION OR THERE IS SOME PSYCHIATRIC PROBLEM WHICH DOESN'T PERMIT YOU TO COOPERATE. THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO SORT OUT, RIGHT NOW. AND SO WHEN I ASK YOU WHY YOU DECLINE, I KNOW YOU GET IRRITATED BY IT, BUT IT'S BECAUSE I'M TRYING TO SORT OUT WHETHER THERE'S SOME PSYCHIATRIC OBSTACLE, OR --

A: What psychiatric facility would you recommend for an individual who was incompetent?

Q: WELL, THAT'S UP TO THE COURTS IN MASSACHUSETTS. ONE OF THE ONES THAT PEOPLE GO TO IS BRIDGEWATER STATE HOSPITAL.

A: Bridgewater state hospital. And what is that facility like?

Q: IT'S NOT AS NICE AS THIS NEW JAIL. I DON'T THINK IT'S TERRIBLE, BUT IT'S-- YOU WOULD BE HOUSED WITH PSYCHIATRIC PATIENTS, AS OPPOSED TO OTHER PRISONERS. AND --

A: Given special medications and so on and so forth?

Q: THERE'S A POSSIBILITY YOU TAKE MEDICATIONS. AND ONE OF THE ISSUES IS, IF YOU FEEL YOU HAVE A MESSAGE YOU WANT TO GET OUT, THEN IF YOU'RE PUT IN A PSYCHIATRIC HOSPITAL, IN A SENSE, IT WOULD TAINT THAT MESSAGE BECAUSE YOU MIGHT BE SEEN AS JUST SIMPLY, YOU KNOW, A MENTALLY ILL PERSON, RATHER THAN AS A PERSON WHO SHOULD BE LISTENED TO. SO I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE ISSUES YOU NEED TO THINK ABOUT WHEN YOU DECIDE WHETHER TO COOPERATE IN ANSWERING QUESTIONS, IS THAT THERE'S A RISK THAT YOU'D BE FOUND NOT COMPETENT TO STAND TRIAL, AND ADMITTED TO A PSYCHIATRIC HOSPITAL.

A: How long do they admit you to the hospital for?

Q: WELL, IT'S USUALLY UP TILL A YEAR, TO SEE IF YOU'RE RESTORED TO COMPETENCE.

A: Once you're restored to competence, you would then stand trial?

Q: EXACTLY. (pause) NOW, DO YOU VIEW YOURSELF AS HAVING ANY MENTAL ILLNESS AT ALL?

A: I know none whatsoever. If I have-- I've never been to a psychiatrist, or ever had any form, any ... mental illness.

Q: FOR EXAMPLE, IF YOUR ATTORNEYS THOUGHT YOUR BEST BET WOULD BE SOME KIND OF INSANITY DEFENSE, WOULD YOU GO ALONG WITH THAT?

A: Insanity defense?

Q: MM HM.

A: What benefit is an insanity defense?

Q: WELL, THE BENEFIT IS --

A: What are the benefits?

Q: IF YOU SUCCEED, YOU WOULD GO TO A PSYCHIATRIC HOSPITAL RATHER THAN TO PRISON. AND AS SOON AS YOU'RE CONSIDERED NOT DANGEROUS TO OTHERS, YOU COULD BE RELEASED FROM THE HOSPITAL.

A: To stand trial?

Q: NO, NO, NO. LET ME EXPLAIN THIS TO YOU. I'LL GO OVER THIS WITH YOU. THE ISSUE OF COMPETENCE TO STAND TRIAL: YOU GO TO A HOSPITAL; YOU'RE RESTORED; THEN, YOU EVENTUALLY STAND TRIAL. BUT IF YOU'RE FOUND NOT GUILTY BY REASON OF INSANITY, THEN YOU GO TO A PSYCHIATRIC HOSPITAL, AND YOU NEVER STAND TRIAL. IN OTHER WORDS, AT THE TRIAL, YOU'RE FOUND LEGALLY INSANE. AND THEREFORE, YOU'RE NOT DECLARED ACCOUNTABLE FOR YOUR ACT. YOU'RE NOT PUNISHED. YOU'RE NEVER SENT TO PRISON.

A: How-- and what time period would you stay in the mental institution?

Q: THAT WOULD DEPEND UPON WHEN YOU'RE CONSIDERED NOT DANGEROUS TO OTHERS. SO PEOPLE COULD BE THERE FOR JUST A MONTH, OR THEY COULD BE THERE FOR A LIFETIME. BUT IT'S NOT FIXED, LIKE A PRISON-- YOU KNOW, YOU GET A FIXED TERM: FIVE YEARS, TEN YEARS, LIFE. IN A PSYCHIATRIC HOSPITAL, IT WOULD BE DEPENDING WHEN YOU'RE-- IF THE COURT VIEWED YOU AS NO LONGER MENTALLY ILL AND NON-DANGEROUS, YOU COULD BE RELEASED. SO THAT'S SOMETHING THAT YOUR ATTORNEYS WOULD NEED TO WEIGH, WHETHER OR NOT THAT'S A WISE-- I'M NOT SUGGESTING THAT THAT IS NECESSARILY BEST FOR YOU. BUT THAT'S ONE CONSIDERATION THAT THEY WOULD ... .

A: Incompetent to stand trial, and go to a mental hospital ... year.

Q: "NOT COMPETENT TO STAND TRIAL" MEANS YOU COME BACK AND STAND TRIAL. BUT "INSANE" MEANS YOU NEVER GO TO PRISON. (pause)

Q: SO AT SOME POINT, I'M SURE YOUR ATTORNEYS WILL DISCUSS THIS WITH YOU. IT'S VERY EARLY IN THE STAGE OF THEM TRYING TO GET TO KNOW YOU AND FIGURE OUT WHAT'S BEST. BUT I'M JUST LAYING THIS OUT FOR YOU, BECAUSE ONE OF THE THINGS I'M STRUGGLING WITH IS, WHEN YOU CHOOSE NOT TO COOPERATE IN ANSWERING QUESTIONS, AND YOU WOULDN'T ANSWER THOSE QUESTIONS TO YOUR ATTORNEY, THEN IT'S HARD FOR THEM TO PUT ON THE BEST DEFENSE, AND IT RAISES THE QUESTION ABOUT WHETHER YOU'RE COMPETENT TO STAND TRIAL.

A: Whether I'm competent stand trial.

Q: YEAH. ARE YOU ANXIOUS --

A: I definitely consider myself competent to stand trial.

Q: YEAH. ARE YOU ANXIOUS --

A: I definitely consider myself competent to stand trial.

Q: YOU DO. ARE YOU ANXIOUS TO STAND TRIAL? WOULD YOU LIKE TO STAND TRIAL, OR WOULD YOU LIKE TO AVOID IT AS LONG AS POSSIBLE?

A: Stand trial of avoid it as often as possible. No. I don't run from trial. When there's a trial that's a date set, I would go to trial.

Q: OKAY. AND AT THAT TRIAL, YOU UNDERSTAND, YOUR ATTORNEYS HAVE TO ENTER A PLEA. THE PLEA HAS TO BE "GUILTY", "NOT GUILTY", "NOT GUILTY, REASON OF INSANITY". THAT DECISION HAS TO BE MADE. AND THE ATTORNEYS CAN'T MAKE THAT DECISION ABOUT WHAT'S IN YOUR BEST INTEREST, ABOUT HOW TO DEFEND YOU BEST, IF YOU DON'T COOPERATE WITH THEM AND SHARE WHETHER YOU COMMITTED THE CRIME, WHAT YOUR STATE OF MIND WAS AT THE TIME OF THE CRIME. THOSE ARE FACTS THEY NEED TO WEIGH, TO WORK OUT THE BEST DEFENSE. SO THIS IDEA THAT YOU'RE NOT GOING TO SHARE WHETHER YOU DID OR DIDN'T DO THE CRIME WITH THEM, THEY CAN'T GO TO TRIAL THAT WAY. AT SOME POINT, YOU HAVE TO SHARE THAT WITH THEM, OR THEY CAN'T DEFEND YOU. THEY CAN'T --

A: Right. Now, the trial date would be set by the state?

Q: THE JUDGE WOULD SET THE TRIAL DATE.

A: The judge would get approval from the attorney, as to how the attorney would plea for me?

Q: YES. AT THIS POINT, I THINK THEY'VE ALREADY PUT IN A PLEA OF "NOT GUILTY" FOR YOU.

A: Right.

Q: BUT YOU KNOW, AT SOME POINT, THEY'LL NEED TO CONSIDER ALL THEIR OPTIONS. YOU KNOW, THERE ARE OTHER-- YOU CAN PLEAD THINGS LIKE "ENTRAPMENT", "SELF-DEFENSE", "INSANITY". THERE'S VARIOUS KINDS OF PLEAS THAT THE DEFENSE CAN PUT FORWARD, AFTER THEY SIZE UP THE CASE AND FIGURE OUT WHAT'S IN YOUR BEST INTEREST. BUT IF YOU DON'T DISCUSS THE CRIME IN ANY WAY WITH THEM, THEY CAN'T MAKE THE BEST DECISIONS. AND THERE'S A CHANCE, THEN, YOU'D BE FOUND INCOMPETENT AND GO TO A PSYCHIATRIC HOSPITAL. AND THE QUESTION-- THAT'S WHAT I'M TRYING TO SORT OUT WITH YOU. THAT'S ONE OF THE ISSUES THAT I'M HERE TO HELP THE ATTORNEYS DECIDE, IS WHETHER YOU ARE ABLE TO COOPERATE AND YOU'RE JUST CHOOSING NOT TO, OR WHETHER YOU CAN'T. (pause)

SO WITH THAT BACKGROUND, LET ME JUST COME BACK AND SAY-- FIRST OF ALL, AT SOME POINT, DO YOU PLAN TO SHARE WHAT HAPPENED (YOU KNOW, WHETHER YOU DID OR DIDN'T DO THE CRIME) WITH YOUR ATTORNEYS? (pause) OR DO YOU PLAN NEVER TO REVEAL THAT TO THEM?

A: My plea is a plea of silence. There are certain questions which I just do not wish to answer.

Q: AT ANY TIME? EVEN --

A: That does not indicate, one way or the other. Did you eat at Burger King at 3 O'clock in the morning? (pause)

Q: SILENCE.

A: Silence.

Q: OKAY. I UNDERSTAND THAT. BUT ONCE YOU GET TO COURT --

A: How does that mean that I did eat there or didn't eat there?

Q: IT DOESN'T.

A: You know, in what way? I-- you know. I don't choose to answer certain questions, just as certain questions you asked me, I didn't want to answer.

Q: OKAY. BUT WOULD YOU PLAN TO CARRY THAT RIGHT THROUGH THE TRIAL? IN OTHER WORDS, YOUR ATTORNEY AT SOME POINT WILL SAY, "DO YOU WANT TO TAKE THE STAND IN YOUR OWN BEHALF, AND TESTIFY?" YOU'VE GOT A RIGHT TO TESTIFY, OR YOU'VE GOT A RIGHT TO NOT TESTIFY. AT THIS POINT, DO YOU THINK YOU WOULD WANT TO TESTIFY AT TRIAL?

A: Would I want to testify in the trial? Testify. That's an interesting word. Define it. What?

Q: IT MEANS, TAKE THE STAND AND TELL YOUR SIDE OF THE STORY.

A: Oh, yes. I'll testify.

Q: OKAY. YOU'D RATHER TESTIFY THAN NOT?

A: Than refuse to go up in front and be questioned?

Q: YES.

A: Oh, I want my moment, yes, to testify.

Q: OKAY. NOW, WHEN YOU TESTIFY, THAT MEANS YOU SUBJECT YOURSELF TO CROSS EXAMINATION, THAT THE PROSECUTOR IS TRYING --

A: I'd like to speak with Ms. Bassil and Mr. Carney about this.

Q: RIGHT. YOU CERTAINLY SHOULD. YOU CERTAINLY SHOULD TALK OVER ALL THIS WITH THEM, BECAUSE THAT'S ONE OF THE-- WHAT MS. BASSIL TOLD ME WAS THAT SHE'S ASKED YOU QUESTIONS ABOUT THE CRIME, AND YOU SAID YOUR DEFENSE IS SILENCE AND YOU WON'T DISCUSS IT. AND THEY'VE ACCEPTED THAT SO FAR, BUT AT SOME POINT, THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO HAVE ANSWERS, TO THINK THROUGH THE PROPER DEFENSE FOR YOU. AND IT'S PERFECTLY PROPER THAT YOU TALK THAT OVER WITH THEM. BUT SEE, THE DEFENSE OF SILENCE ISN'T LIKE AN OFFICIAL DEFENSE. IT'S NOT LIKE-- YOU CAN PLEAD SELF DEFENSE. YOU CAN PLEAD INSANITY. YOU CAN'T PLEAD SILENCE. THAT'S NOT --

A: I can plead anything I want.

Q: WELL, BUT SEE, THE COURT WOULD --

A: You don't have-- you have the fifth amendment.

Q: YES.

A: At any point during the trial, say, "I plead the fifth amendment."

Q: ABSOLUTELY TRUE. THAT'S ABSOLUTELY TRUE.

A: Are you trying to take the fifth amendment away from me, even though you're working for me?

Q: NO. NO, I'M NOT. NO. THAT'S ABSOLUTELY TRUE. IN THE TRIAL, YOU CAN DECLINE TO TESTIFY. BUT IN WORKING WITH YOUR ATTORNEYS IN PLANNING YOUR LEGAL STRATEGY, IF YOU DON'T DISCUSS THE CRIME WITH THEM, IT RAISES A QUESTION ABOUT YOUR COMPETENCE TO STAND TRIAL -- AS TO WHETHER THAT'S WILLFUL NOT COOPERATING, OR IF YOU SAY, "I'M NOT GOING TO COOPERATE, AND HERE ARE THE REASONS WHY." WHEN I SAY "NOT COOPERATE", I KNOW YOU'RE BEING PARTLY COOPERATIVE.

A: Who said I'm not cooperating? You keep mentioning non-cooperation. I haven't-- I believe I was food poisoned. We know I-- there's actual evidence, blood tests and urine tests. They weren't tested for everything. However, there is substantial proof that I was poisoned, down in Norfolk.

Q: WHEN I SAY "NOT COOPERATE", I AM REFERRING TO DECLINING TO ANSWER SOME QUESTIONS. YOU'RE GENERALLY COOPERATING, AND YOU'VE GENERALLY BEEN COOPERATIVE WITH YOUR ATTORNEYS. BUT THERE ARE IMPORTANT AREAS WHICH YOU HAVE BUILD A FENCE AROUND AND SAID, "I WON'T DISCUSS THAT." THAT'S WHAT I'M CALLING BEING UNCOOPERATIVE.

A: I haven't eaten in a few days. I have mentioned that before.

Q: BUT YOU'RE SELECTIVELY--

A: And now, you keep saying that I'm uncooperative. I think I'm pretty cooperative to even come in here at this time.

Q: WELL, THAT'S TRUE. THAT'S TRUE.

A: Now, you're working for me.

Q: YES.

A: I may not be paying you directly, but the ways of the law states-- the way that the state set up the laws is that they would pay you for me, because I couldn't afford to hire you.

Q: THAT'S CORRECT.

A: Which means that you're working for me, to help me.

Q: THAT'S RIGHT. BUT IF YOU--

A: You're not questioning me for the prosecution.

Q: THAT'S RIGHT. THAT'S RIGHT.

A: That's the way it's supposed to be.

Q: THAT'S ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. BUT IF YOU CONTINUE NOT TO ANSWER QUESTIONS ABOUT THE CRIME, THEN YOUR ATTORNEYS HAVE TO DECIDE WHETHER TO INTRODUCE TO THE COURT THE QUESTION OF YOUR COMPETENCE TO STAND TRIAL, AND WHETHER YOU SHOULD GO TO A PSYCHIATRIC HOSPITAL.

A: Right. Well, I'd like to sit down with Ms. Bassil, Mr. Carney, and you, if you'd like -- probably best -- and we can discuss this with them, and see what they think.

Q: OKAY. THAT'S FAIR. THAT'S FAIR. BUT THE REASON I'M LAYING ALL THIS OUT TO YOU IS BECAUSE WHEN YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT YOUR DEFENSE OF SILENCE, I HAVE THE IMPRESSION THAT YOU THOUGHT YOU MIGHT JUST GO RIGHT THROUGH TO TRIAL AND JUST DECLINE TO DISCUSS THE CRIME. AND I'M TELLING YOU, THAT WON'T HAPPEN; THAT YOU CAN DO THAT, BUT YOU ARE LIKELY TO BE FOUND NOT COMPETENT TO STAND TRIAL, SENT TO A PSYCHIATRIC HOSPITAL --

A: Excuse me. Repeat what you just said, if you could.

Q: I'M SAYING THAT IF YOU SIMPLY ARE WAITING TO TALK WITH YOUR ATTORNEYS, UNTIL YOU'RE READY, ABOUT THE CRIME, THAT'S FINE. BUT IF YOU WERE TO SAY TO YOUR ATTORNEYS, "I WILL NOT DISCUSS THIS CRIME; EVEN RIGHT THROUGH THE TRIAL, I WILL NOT DISCUSS IT," --

A: You have the right-- let me explain something to you. You have the right to plead the fifth amendment through an entire trial. That does not mean you're not competent to stand trial. It just means you have the right to plead the fifth amendment through the entire trial.

Q: YOU'RE RAISING A VERY GOOD QUESTION.

A: Very good question. Now, you seem to be part of the prosecution, and I don't like it.

Q: NO. NO, I'M NOT. NO, I"M NOT. THE REASON I'M LAYING THIS OUT TO YOU IS SO THAT YOU'LL BE AWARE OF SOME CONSEQUENCES WHICH MAY FLOW, WHICH YOU DIDN'T EXPECT.

A: Right.

Q: THAT'S WORKING FOR YOU.

A: Well, that's the way I'd like it to be.

Q: OKAY. SO YOUR OWN PREFERENCE IS?

A: That you are to help me.

Q: WELL, OF COURSE I'M HERE TO HELP.

A: Not be part of the prosecution.

Q: SURE. WHAT I'M SAYING --THE REASON--I'M EDUCATING HERE ABOUT THE TECHNICAL ASPECT OF THE TRIAL THAT MOST LAY PEOPLE WOULD NOT KNOW.

A: First of all, I already mentioned to you that I will answer the questions that I wish to answer. Does my fifth amendment right not to answer any question that I don't want to answer --that has nothing to do, whether you are competent or incompetent to stand trial. You can be completely competent to stand trial, and not say a word or even have an attorney.

Q: OKAY. YOU ARE RIGHT. YOU'RE TECHNICALLY RIGHT WHEN YOU SAY THAT, IF THE REASONS FOR BEING SILENT ARE RATIONAL. IN OTHER WORDS, THERE ARE SOMETIMES GOOD REASONS TO BE SILENT, AND THE PROSECUTION --

A: Who is the prosecution to sy what reasons to be rational or silent? That's like saying, "Let me give you my Generals," when we're about to go into battle.

Q: LET ME FINISH.

A: What -- how does this make sense?

Q: FIRST OF ALL, IT'S NOT FOR THE PROSECUTION TO SAY. IT'S FOR A JUDGE TO SAY. BUT THE POINT I'M MAKING HERE IS, IF YOU HAVE RATIONAL REASONS TO--

A: I don't need any reason at all. I'm completely competent to stand trial. Now, I'd like to discuss that with Mrs. Bassil or Mr. Carney, to find out what they think of that. As far as what I say on the stand, I could recite something from a dictionary. What difference would it make? That doesn't mean I'm incompetent to stand trial, if he asks me about fruit loops and I mention cheerios.

Q: WELL --

A: What correlation is that? That doesn't mean you're insane. It just means that you're ignoring them.

Q: LET ME GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE...GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE--

A: Not to say that's what I do.

Q: HOLD ON.

A: But I don't think you completely understand. Insane. What is "insane"?

Q: MR. SALVI, LET ME GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE WHICH I THINK WILL MAKE THIS CLEARER. JUST PUT YOUR CASE ASIDE FOR A MINUTE, AND TAKE A HYPOTHETICAL, DIFFERENT CASE. AND LET'S SAY WE HAVE A MAN WHO IS CHARGED WITH A MURDER, AND HE SAYS--

A: Charged with, or accused of?

Q: BOTH.

A: You keep saying "charged with."

Q: WELL, YEAH. ONCE YOU'RE INDICTED--

A: A charge.

Q: YEAH. THEN YOU HAVE THE CHARGE OF MURDER.

A: ...(inaudible)

Q: INDICTED FOR MURDER.

A: Right. Right.

Q: OKAY. AND HE SAYS, "I WILL NOT SPEAK TO MY ATTORNEY, BECAUSE THIS EARTHLY COURT HAS NO POWER OVER ME. I ANSWER ONLY TO A HEAVENLY COURT," BECAUSE THAT INDIVIDUAL IS PSYCHOTIC AND OUT OF TOUCH WITH REALITY. HOLD ON. LET ME FINISH. BUT IF THAT WERE TO COME UP, SUCH A PERSON COULD BE FOUND NOT COMPETENT TO STAND TRIAL, TREATED IN THE PSYCHIATRIC HOSPITAL, AND WHEN THEY'RE BACK IN TOUCH WITH REALITY, COME BACK TO TRIAL. SEE, BECAUSE THE REASONS FOR NOT TALKING WOULD BE PSYCHOTIC REASONS, IN THAT CASE. IF THE PERSON SAID, "I DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT ANYTHING; I'M GOING TO EXERCISE MY FIFTH AMENDMENT RIGHT BECAUSE I'M A HIT MAN FOR THE MAFIA AND I'M MORE CONCERNED ABOUT SILENCE THAN SOMETHING ELSE," ONE COULD ARGUE THAT'S A RATIONAL REASON NOT TO GIVE INFORMATION. HE'D HAVE A RIGHT TO DO THAT. BUT IF IT'S AN IRRATIONAL OR A PSYCHOTIC REASON FOR NOT COOPERATING WITH ONE'S ATTORNEY, THEN THAT COULD LEAD TO SOMEONE BEING FOUND NOT COMPETENT AND GOING TO A PSYCHIATRIC HOSPITAL. OKAY?

A: Right.

Q: I'M JUST GIVING YOU TWO EXAMPLES. I'M NOT SAYING WHICH CATEGORY YOU FALL IN, BUT I'M EXPLAINING TO YOU THAT IF SOMEONE REMAINS SILENT FOR PSYCHOTIC, IRRATIONAL REASONS, THE JUDGE WOULD FIND THEM INCOMPETENT. THEY WOULD GO TO A PSYCHIATRIC HOSPITAL.

A: Wait a second. Okay.

Q: DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?

A: So if found incompetent--could you repeat what you just said? That last bit? All of it?

Q: WELL, I GAVE AN EXAMPLE.

A: An example.

Q: REPEAT THE WHOLE EXAMPLE? YEAH. THAT IF SOMEONE WERE FOUND INCOMPETENT FOR IRRATIONAL REASONS, FOR PSYCHOTIC REASONS, THEY ARE LIKELY TO BE SENT TO A PSYCHIATRIC HOSPITAL.

A: Meaning silence?

Q: WELL, IF THE SILENCE WERE FOR PSYCHOTIC REASONS, FOR IRRATIONAL REASONS.

END OF TAPE 602

DR. RESNICK: SO, THAT'S THE REASON--SO, WHEN I ASK YOU THE QUESTION--WHEN YOU SAY, "I DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE TRIAL; I DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT THIS," AND I TRY AND SAY, "WHY DON'T YOU?" I'M LOOKING TO SEE IF YOU HAVE RATIONAL REASONS OR IRRATIONAL REASONS. AND, OF COURSE, YOU'RE DECLINING TO DISCUSS THE REASONS. AND THAT LEAVES ME IN THIS UNCERTAINTY TO TRY AND CONSULT WITH YOUR ATTORNEYS AND SAY WHAT I RECOMMEND HERE, BECAUSE YOU'RE SIMPLY NOT GIVING ME A CLUE AS TO WHY.

SO, IN OTHER WORDS, EVEN WITHOUT THE REVEALING THE INFORMATION YOU DON'T WANT TO REVEAL, YOU COULD SAY WELL, I WON'T REVEAL IT FOR REASONS. AND B, OR X AND Y, EVEN WITHOUT REVEALING IT. DO YOU UNDERSTAND? I'D APPRECIATE UNDERSTANDING WHY YOU DON'T WANT TO DISCUSS THOSE AREAS.

John Salvi: And how...(inaudible) the judge going to rule one way or the other whether I'm competent or incompetent? Isn't it my right to have a trial? If an individual seeks a trial--

DR. RESNICK: BUT, NOT IF YOU'RE NOT COMPETENT. SEE, LET ME EXPLAIN THE BACKGROUND FOR THIS. SEE, IN OLDEN TIMES IN ENGLAND THEY HAD A TRIAL IN ABSTENTION. THAT IS, IF A PERSON WAS PHYSICALLY NOT THERE THEY"D STILL HAVE A TRIAL. AND IF THEY EVER FOUND THE GUY, THEY'D SAY "YOU'RE CONVICTED." THEY DECIDED THAT WASN'T FAIR, THAT A PERSON PHYSICALLY HAD TO BE PRESENT TO TELL HIS SIDE OF THE STORY.

NOW, IF SOMEONE WERE MENTALLY ILL, THEY'RE, SO TO SPEAK, NOT THERE MENTALLY AND, THEREFORE, COULDN'T GET A FAIR TRIAL. SO THOSE RULES THAT YOU HAVE TO BE COMPETENT IN ORDER TO GO TO TRIAL, IF YOU'RE TOO MENTALLY ILL TO FOLLOW THE TRIAL AND PAY ATTENTION TO IT AND BE ABLE TO COOPERATE, THEN THEY WOULD DEFER THE TRIAL UNTIL YOU'RE TREATED. THEN YOU COULD COME BACK AND BE A FULL PARTICIPANT IN YOUR TRIAL. THAT'S THE THEORY BEHIND IT.

SO, THE ANSWER IS YOU'RE RIGHT ABOUT HAVING YOUR RIGHT TO A FIFTH AMENDMENT. BUT, IF A JUDGE CONCLUDES THAT MENTAL ILLNESS IS INTERFERING IN YOUR ABILITY TO COOPERATE, HE COULD FIND YOU NOT COMPETENT. YOU'D GO TO A HOSPITAL, YOU'D BE TREATED, AND THEN COME BACK AND HAVE A TRIAL.

John Salvi: ...(inaudible) that time period in the hospital?

DR. RESNICK: IT'S UNCERTAIN. IT COULD BE A MONTH, OR THREE MONTHS OR SIX MONTHS.

John Salvi: For what reason would that be? You'd only be going to trial again eventually, unless proven insane.

DR. RESNICK: WELL, THE REASON IS TO BE SURE THAT YOU GOT A FAIR TRIAL WHERE YOU WERE A PARTICIPANT AND ABLE TO FULLY HELP IN YOUR OWN DEFENSE. IF A JUDGE CONCLUDES YOU'RE NOT ABLE TO HELP IN YOUR OWN DEFENSE BECAUSE OF MENTAL ILLNESS, THEN THAT'S NOT A FAIR TRIAL. SO, THE GOAL IS TO PRESERVE A FAIR TRIAL.

John Salvi: In what reason would they think I was mentally ill? I don't have any past history of anything? No criminal record. Not even a driving record. Now, why would they assume I was mentally ill? I've never been to a psychiatrist, never been advised to a psychiatrist.

DR. RESNICK: THAT'S TRUE; THAT ALL FAVORS.

John Salvi: Never even been to a consultation before. There's no reason anyone would think I was insane. I've never acted insane, or carried myself in an insane way. Why would they think I was insane?

DR. RESNICK: WELL, I'LL BE VERY FRANK WITH YOU HERE.

John Salvi: Why would they think I was incompetent?

DR. RESNICK: YOU DO HAVE SOME--

John Salvi: What proof could they bring forward to say this individual is incompetent? Silence is not proof. If I...(inaudible) the whole thing, that's not incompetent. Does that mean you're crazy, though? That's called a Fifth Amendment right.

DR. RESNICK: OKAY, LET ME ANSWER YOUR QUESTION BECAUSE YOU'RE ASKING ME. YOU DO HAVE SOME UNUSUAL IDEAS ABOUT THE CATHOLIC CHURCH. AND IF IT WERE CONCLUDED THAT THOSE WERE DELUSIONS ABOUT CATHOLIC CURRENCY AND SO FORTH, THAT COULD BE VIEWED AS EVIDENCE OF MENTAL ILLNESS.

A: So what you are saying is you're going to try to bring this tape against me in court.

Q: NO.

A: For the prosecution to the jusge to prove that I'm incompetent because of what I've said.

Q: NO.

A: Any individual who had any common sense at all would take what I said with a lot of grains of salt.

Q: FIRST OF ALL, I'M WORKING WITH YOUR DEFENSE TEAM. YOUR DEFENSE TEAM WILL VIEW THIS TAPE. IF THIS TAPE IS UNHELPFUL YO YOU IN WHAT THEY DO STRATEGICALLY IS IN THEIR BEST INTEREST, THEY DON'T NEED TO SHOW IT TO ANYONE.

A: Exactly. As far as I'm concerned, this tape should not go past my attorneys, which is what I was to understand.

Q: THAT IS CORRECT, UNLESS THEU THINK IT'S IN YOUR INTEREST TO BRING TO COURT, IT WILL NOT BE BROUGHT TO COURT.

A: Right. Unless we think, in my interest, that it's best.

Q: SO DON'T TALK IN TERMS OF, NO ONE'S TALKING ABOUT PROSECUTION OR DOING ANYTHING AGAINST YOU. YOUR ATTORNEYS HAVE AN OBLIGATION, THOUGH, TO BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE COMPETENT TO STAND TRIAL. IF THEY THINK THAT YOU CAN'T COOPERATE, OR YOU TAKE AN IRRATIONAL--

A: I don't want to keep, I don't want to keep going over the same thing.

Q: I JUST WANT TO EXPLAIN TO YOU, I KNOW YOU FEEL I'M BEING PERSISTENT, BUT IN OTHER AREAS I'M NOT.

A: In some areas I'm happy that you are persistent, but in other areas I'm not.

Q: BUT I WANT TO EXPLAIN TO YOU WHY I'M BEING PERSISTENT, THAT IT'S A CRUCIAL QUESTION AS TO WHETHER YOUR DECLINING TO ANSWER SOME QUESTIONS IS RATIONALLY OR IRRATIONALLY BASED.

A: It's my fifth amendment right. You're talking about one of my rights. That has nothing to do with competent or incompetent.

Q: NO, THAT'S WHERE YOU'RE WRONG. THAT'S WHERE YOU'RE WRONG. IT IS ONE OF YOUR RIGHTS. BUT IT, JUST AS THE EXAMPLE I GAVE YOU ABOUT THE PERSON THAT BELIEVED NO COURT HAD JURISDICTION OTHER THAN A HEAVENLY COURT, IF THAT PERSON WAS NO BASED IN REALITY ABOUT THEIR JEOPARDY, THAT WOULD BE A BASIS FOR THEIR INCOMPETENCE. THAT'S THE REALITY OF IT. DISCUSS IT WITH YOUR ATTORNEYS, BUT I'M TELLING YOU, THAT'S THE REALITY OF IT. SO THAT'S WHY THE REASON THAT YOU DECLINED TO ANSWER QUESTIONS IS A CRITICAL ONE. THUS FAR YOU'VE CHOSEN NO TO SHARE IT. BUT THAT'S A CRITICAL QUESTION WHICH NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED AT SOME POINT.

A: Ok. We'll sit down with the attorneys. Mrs. Basil and Mr. Carney. And we'll discuss this tape, which I would like to view.

Q: I HAVE NO OBJECTION TO THAT. THAT'S BETWEEN YOU AND YOUR ATTORNEY. I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH IT.

A: What time do you think that would be good to view this tape?

Q: OH, I DON'T, I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT KIND OF FACILITIES THEY HAVE, PRIVATE FACILITIES THEY HAVE TO VIEW IT AND SO FORTH.

A: Sometimes I use reason. Don't live without using reason. There needs to be a reason for everything.

Q: RIGHT.

A: There doesn't mean to be a reason for everything. And that doesn't mean you're insane if you don't have a reason.

Q: I'M NOT SAYING THAT MAKES YOU INSANE. I'M NOT SAYING IT MAKES YOU INSANE. WHAT I'M SAYING IS THAT IF YOU DON'T ANSWER QUESTIONS FOR YOUR ATTORNEYS, AND THEY CAN'T PRESENT THE BEST DEFENSE, THAT MAY LEAD TO A FINDING OF INCOMPETENCY TO STAND TRIAL.

A: Well, I'm telling you the truth. How many more questions do you have to ask?

Q: LET'S SEE HOW WE'RE DOING HERE. LET ME REVIEW A COUPLE OF AREAS.

A: If I wouldn't want to go too much further with this. I feel that we've covered almost everything. Unless there's something you feel we haven't covered. And I'd like to go back to my facility. Preferably I'd like to talk to Mr. Carney.

Q: THE PERSON THAT'S PICKING ME UP HERE IS JANICE--

A: Basil.

Q: BASIL. AND WHETHER SHE'S GOING TO--

A: Mr. Carney left, I believe.

Q: RIGHT. HE DID LEAVE. SO I DON'T KNOW THAT WE'RE GOING TO GET THAT ACCOMPLISHED TODAY. I'M SURE THAT THEY'LL BE IN TO SEE YOU WITHIN A SHORT TIME, THOUGH. THEY'LL BE AVAILABLE TO YOU. BUT I'M NOT SURE THAT WILL HAPPEN TODAY. AND THIS HAS BEEN A LONG SESSION FOR YOU, ALSO. SO I'M NOT SURE THIS IS THE BEST DAY FOR IT. LET ME GO BACK, AND WE'LL WRAP UP WITHIN 30 MINUTES.

A: What about 10?

Q: OK. FINE. NOW, WITHOUGH GETTING MAD AT ME--

A: I'm not mad.

Q: WHAT I WANT TO DO IS JUST RUN THROUGH A FEW QUESTIONS WHICH YOU HAVE DECLINED TO ANSWER IN THE PAST AND SEE IF AT THIS POINT YOU'LL OFFER ANY MORE INFORMATION, OR IF YOU'LL JUST SAY YOU'LL DECLINE, I'LL RESPECT THAT. I JUST WANT TO GO THROUGH A FEW AREAS AND JUST SEE IF YOU'LL CONSIDER ANSWERING ANY MORE QUESTIONS. WITH RESPECT TO THE ISSUE OF THE FLORIDA SHOOTING OF THE ABORTION DOCTOR, ARE TOU WILLING TO DISCUSS THAT ANY MORE WITH ME?

A: No, I, not for the most part. I don't know, you know.

Q: OK. WITH RESPECT TO THE ISSUE OF THE LIKELY OUTCOME OF THE TRIAL, WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL HAPPEN TO YOU AT THIS TRIAL?

A: What do I think will happen to me at this trial? Well, that would be a dificult decision. I can't really say exactly what would happen. Can you? What do I think would happen?

Q: YES. THAT'S ALL I'M ASKING.

A: There's such a multitude of possibilities.

Q: WELL, LET ME JUST SAY, FOR EXAMPLE--

A: How can you say what do I think?

Q: DO YOU THINK IT'S MORE LIKELY THAT YOU'LL BE CONVICTED OR FOUND INNOCENT? HOW ABOUT A STRAIGHTFORWARD ONE?

A: I could not say that right now. I haven't seen the evidence that would be brought forth against me. How could I make a decision like that before I've even been prosecuted?

Q: THAT'S FAIR. AND ONCE YOUR ATTORNEYS PRESENT ALL THAT EVIDENCE, THEN YOU'D BE IN A BETTER POSITION TO MAKE THAT JUDGEMENT. I THINK I ASKED YOU BEFORE ABOUT WHETHER YOU WOULD OR WOULD NOT CONSIDER THE DEFENSE OF INSANITY, AND I DON"T THINK YOU GAVE ME A DIRECT ANSWER TO THAT. WAS THAT SOMETHING THAT YOU WOULD CONSIDER, OR YOU WOULD RULE OUT CATEGORICALLY?

A: I would for the most part most assuredly rule that out. I am not insane. I am not incompetent.

Q: OK. THAT'S A GOOD, CLEAR ANSWER. WITH RESPECT TO THE REASONS THAT YOU DIDN'T WANT TO DISCUSS THE CRIME, ARE YOU WILLING TO SHARE THOSE AT ALL?

A: No, I don't need a reason.

Q: THAT'S FINE. I JUST WANTED TO GO THROUGH AND ASK AGAIN. I"M NOT GOING TO GET INTO IT ANY LONGER.

A: I already told you that. You already mentioned that.

Q: AND I THINK THE OTHER AREAS WE COVERED. ARE THERE ANY QUESTIONS YOU HAVE FOR ME?

NEW TRANSCRIPT

A: For the most part.

Q: OKAY I THINK WE CAN GO AHEAD AND WRAP IT UP.

A: Great.

Q: YOU'LL BE TALKING FURTHER WITH YOUR ATTORNEYS AT SOME POINT AS--

A: What time is Mrs...(inaudible) back?

Q: SHE'S SCHEDULED TO COME BY 4:30.

A: What time is it now?

Q: IT'S 20 TO 4. NOW, BECAUSE I'M FINISHING EARLY, I'M GOING TO CALL HER. AND SHE LIVES ABOUT A HALF HOUR AWAY, SHE TOLD ME.

A: Good. I'd like the three of us to review these tapes, preferably today.

Q: THAT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

A: You don't think so.

Q: MY FLIGHT OUT IS AT 7. AND, UH--

A: Flight to where?

Q: I'M FROM CLEVELAND, OHIO.

A: Really!

Q: HMMM--I FLEW OUT THIS MORNING, AND I'M FLYING OUT THIS EVENING. THAT'S WHY, FOR ME, THESE ARE PRECIOUS HOURS, AND I WAS ANXIOUS TO TRY AND GET TO THE MOST CRITICAL ASPECTS.

A: See, I wanted to find out more about you. You just didn't want to talk about things.

Q: RIGHT.

A: It's interesting.

Q: AGAIN, YOU CAN ASK--DID YOUR ATTORNEYS TELL YOU AT ALL ABOUT ME? DID THEY GIVE YOU ANY--

A: They told me that you are very credible and a noted psychiatrist.

Q: OKAY, I WON'T ARGUE WITH THAT. I DON'T WANT TO LEAVE ANY DOUBT IN YOUR MIND THAT MY GOAL IS TO BE HELPFUL TO THE EXTENT I CAN WITH YOUR DEFENSE ATTORNEYS WITH THE BOUNDS OF TRUTH. SO, PLEASE DON'T SEE ME AS WORKING FOR THE PROSECUTION. MY JOB IS TO LAY OUT TO YOUR DEFENSE ATTORNEYS WHAT I THINK IS GOING ON. AND THEN IF THEY THINK IT WILL BE HELPFUL TO CALL ME IN COURT, THEY'LL CALL ME. IF THEY THINK IT'S NOT HELPFUL, THEY CANNOT CALL ME IN COURT.

SO, IN THAT SENSE, I CAN'T HURT YOU UNLESS YOUR DEFENSE ATTORNEYS THINK THAT WHAT I HAVE TO SAY IS HELPFUL, I WON'T BE TESTIFYING.

A: I'm amazed that one was chosen all the way from Ohio. Do you intend to--Now you would fly in whenever it was necessary. Are these tapes sent to Ohio, you will have copies of them?

Q: WELL, YOUR ATTORNEY WILL HAVE THE ORIGINAL.

A: The original one of these.

Q: AND THEN HE MAY CHOOSE TO SHARE WITH ME LIKE A TRANSCRIPT OR SOMETHING. BUT HE'S VERY PROTECTIVE THAT THESE DON'T--

A: What is that individual's name that's working the camera right there?

Q: I DON'T KNOW BUT I KNOW--

A: He is a part of your team or--

Q: NO, BUT JAY TOLD ME THAT HE'S OUTSIDE RIGHT NOW RATHER THAN HERE BECAUSE HE CANNOT HEAR WHAT IS BEING SAID. HE JUST HAS SOME REMOTE FOCUS TO KNOW WHEN THE TAPES NEED CHANGING. BUT HE'S NOT HEARING WHAT WE'RE SAYING BACK AND FORTH. AND JAY SET IT UP THAT WAY.

ALRIGHT. WELL, I THINK WE CAN STOP. I JUST WANTED TO ESTABLISH A RAPPORT WITH YOU TO HAVE YOU SEE ME AS SOMEONE WHO'S HERE TO BE AS HELPFUL AS I CAN TO THE DEFENSE. AND THAT ONCE YOU AND YOUR ATTORNEYS TALK THIS OVER, I MAY COME UP A SECOND TIME AT SOME POINT TO GO OVER QUESTIONS WHICH YOU WEREN'T READY TO SHARE AT THIS TIME. BUT, THIS IS KIND OF LIKE A PRELIMINARY MEETING TO GET ACQUAINTED TO TRY AND GET ON RECORD WHAT YOUR THINKING IS AT THIS TIME. AND TO SEE TO WHAT EXTENT THAT CAN BE HELPFUL.

AT SOME POINT, IT'S POSSIBLE THAT THE PROSECUTION WOULD HAVE AN EXPERT, OR THE COURT WOULD HAVE AN EXPERT, ALSO TALK WITH YOU. AND SO IT'S IMPORTANT FOR YOUR ATTORNEYS TO HAVE SOMETHING THAT IS A CONSULTANT TO THEM IN THIS AREA.

OKAY, LET'S CALL IT A DAY. AND I'LL SHARE MY ORIGINAL THOUGHTS WITH JANICE NOW. AND THEN I'M SURE SHE'LL MEET WITH JAY AND THEY'LL TALK FURTHER WITH YOU.

Q: Okay, great, that sounds good.

END

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